No more empty lot at 21st and Broad?
An RTD article about the continued strong demand for apartments in Shockoe has info about a proposed development at 21st and Broad (across from the New Light Baptist Church):
In addition, a 74-unit apartment complex is planned a few blocks to the east, at 21st and Broad. [...]
The 21st and Broad Apartments would consist of four floors of apartments above a ground floor that would include a lobby and commercial space. The project also would have below-ground parking, according to plans filed with the city.
Yea that is what we need more +800 dollar apartments. Ravenscroft, cold Storage and about 4 other new complexes that are not even close to full. Railroad Y has plenty of vacancies as well.
Let me toss out a few objections for those that oppose the project. Feel free to use without credit:
This will block the historic views of the weed infested parking lots in Shockoe Bottom.
How could people possibly live within site of a former slave trading area?
The noise from the interstate will make it impossible to sleep at night.
Bus noise is really loud. Diesel fumes are dangerous.
What’s wrong with the vacant lots as they are?
Where will all these people park?
This better not be “affordable housing”
Demand? What demand? Who wants to live in the bottom?
This is going to add traffic on Broad Street that will block Police/Fire and Ambulances.
Great. More drunk residents staggering on the sidewalk back to their house. Can’t they just drive like the rest of us?
The Bottom is in a flood plain. How will they get to work during the next 400 year rainfall?
This is going to affect the view from the WRVA overlook.
;-)
Woohoo! I’ll be happy to see another large, vacant lot in Richmond get filled in with some mixed-use development.
you sound like a blubbering idiot ;-)
Sounds like an exciting, infill project to me. I can’t wait to see the renderings.
You forgot: This is going to take away money from the school system!
Bravo, PointCounterPoint. Upscale development is good!
I will add that I think the city / region also needs to be making a major effort to bring new business in – to get more people in the area to fill these things up and support all the local pubs, clubs, cafes, botiques, etc.
Bullwinkle,
No argument here. I’m all for in-fill. It’s a very efficient use of land and very green to build in a city vs. the burbs.
I was simply saving the anti-growth, anti-green, anti-development, anti-change people some time. Sort of a pick and choose reason why it shouldn’t be be built. Can’t wait to see how the CHA checks in on this one!
If the demand is there, I’m all for it. And I work REALLY close to where this is going to be going.
But show me some numbers, please, to back up your claim that the already large numbers of vacancies aren’t going to be enough for these imaginary tenants?
Will development be local, or another tax write off to companies that have nothing to do with the area, don’t care for the intrusion, and ultimately run the property from another state or sell it to someone who will?
Grotz,
Why would you care if “ultimately run the property from another state or sell it to someone who will?”
I bet 90% of all apartment companies are non-local. Regardless of who owns it, the tax rate is the same.
Land should only be owned by local people? Should the live in the same block? Same city? Same state? What if the company is a corporation?
BTW- this is being developed by a Va group.
There are numerous companies out there that do just what you asked about-It’s called “Market Absorption.” However, asking the developer to share that with you is like asking your competitor to share their profit margins with you. Not going to happen.
However, you can be assured that most developers know in the ballpark what vacancy rates, price points, construction costs and rent rates will be BEFORE they commit to a job.
You can also be assured the lenders will ask this question as well. The developer will also probably have a 40% cash equity position based on today’s lending market.
These are the same Developers that purchase land in areas not zoned for what they had planned to do. I think they don’t take into account much that is why they want to provide apartments are High end just like the condos everyone wants to make lots of money off of and end up renting. all this Development would help if we had people capable of affording the high rent costs most these places charge. Until then it is a waste of time. PointCounterPoint you forget that the greed factor tends drive most compaines now a days not common sense. I am not opposed to them building something but Apartment that they will want to charge over 800 for is not going to help anyone.
Time for landlord permits in the City of Richmond…
I don’t think that $800/month is considered high end. Using the normal calculations, that connotes a gross household income of $38,400.
All for it!
The median household income of Shockoe Bottom residents is almost 50,000 a year; it is within reason to assume people moving to the area can afford 800 a month rent. Also, a majority of the households are just one person.
The zoning argument against Shockoe Bottom development has very little merit. It is reasonable to expect zoning changes to accommodate a development proposal. Espcially when the currently zoning is inconsistent with the rest of the neighborhood.
I think most people would agree that M2 zoning is not appropriate for Shockoe Bottom.
Point Counter Point, you are my hero.
First 800 is usually for a small apartment not your upscale places they will be a 1000 and the fact you think just because people can afford it is why they should pay it shows you are a clueless as the market that is driven here. Funny thing is that the market will just keep escalating and push out your bartenders, servers and those who actually live around here. David you Statistics are in the wrong location that is Shockoe Slip area the area they are building and around is Shockoe Bottom. Different Economic Strata and they are not all in the 38,0000 to 40,000 price range but most people who want to make money ignore that fact.
Concerned Citizen I don’t know where you got your information from but that is not the Shockoe Bottom area I know 50,000 is Tobacco Row and Shockoe Slip and that is barely as far as it goes. Now with just a small cross section of people who are clueless I can see why they are all trying to go for all the money they can get. At this rate we will see Shockoe Bottom devoid of the people who provide you services that you take for granted. But what am I saying those of you who actually live in Shockoe Bottom and have the additude more is better will find out for yourselves.
Seeing as how they propose to build on an empty lot, it doesn’t seem like anyone is being pushed out of anything.
Thank you PointCounterPoint, and thank you john_m.
Progress is good, people.
@47,800, the median household income in Shockoe Bottom is almost 50,000 a year. This was the 2006-2007 figure, it has likely gone up.
In response to #17 and #20, the study in the above PDF appears to have lumped Shockoe Bottom and Tobacco Row together (HH income – $47,800). Then it lists “Shockoe Slip/Riverfront/Financial Center/City Center” w/ $22,200 as HH income. Having not analyzed the boundaries yet, I think this seemed off at first glance. (Perhaps Tobacco Row is causing the no. to be higher, and Shockoe Slip/Riverfront the same for the other group)
Anyway, i just thought these areas lumped together were skewing what people actually make… most households are just one or two people as well. Regardless of what people in those areas made two yrs ago, you should just consider what someone or a couple would want to pay (or could afford to pay) for these new apts.
I agree w/ that $800 rent is a low figure, but it’ll be most likely be much more than that. To your (#15) comment, “Median household income of Shockoe Bottom residents is almost 50,000 a year; it is within reason to assume people moving to the area can afford 800 a month rent,” appears to show that you’re expecting just people at or around that income level to move into those apartments? If you as an individual make $50k (or even gross $38k income as David suggested) you’d be able to pay this w/out a problem most likely. However, if you add a family to that equation, it’s not easy to pay for all your housing needs, food, etc. if you make that much.. (average household income was $34k last I heard).
Despite having not rented in a while, I still look up rents, and see that the average rent in most Richmond areas is more than even $700 or $800.
I would dare say the dumpy buildings that were torn down at 21st and Broad a few years ago “contributed” to the neighborhood. Once again, my advice for anyone looking to re-develop land is advised to leave the eyesore on their property until the land use is approved. People have short term memories about how bad it was before.
Back to the $800 apartment.
Rental rates are typically based by the square foot, location (cost of land) and amenities offered (and cost of construction) and maintenance of the site and building. The value of a rental property is determined by the rent rates.
Want GE Profile appliances vs. a generic white refrigerator? You gotta pay for it! $2000 vs. $300.
Want to drive a Mercedes vs. a Hyundai? You gotta pay for it!
So, that being offered, at a rental rate of $800 and a rent/SF of about $1.25 on the high side, that supports a 1 bedroom apartment of 640 SF. Hardly enough space to swing a cat if you know what I mean.
Want a two bedroom and more SF? Then pay for the extra square footage. (Simple math, isn’t it?)
Want higher end amenities? You gotta pay for it!
Funny thing….houses are the same way. Some of you might not have noticed that a 5,000 SF house might cost more than a 1500 SF house. Want granite and tile? OK, everyone together now…..”You gotta pay for it”.
SBD, a while back you said you successfully negotiated a better rent rate. Good for you. However, balancing the fact that the landlord would have to repaint your place, it was probably a good deal for him as well.
Concerned Citizen So you beleive everything a number cruncher tells you explains alot because they don’t always get it right.
Laura thank you at least you see that they merged all of Shockoe Bottom.It is much more than that most of the smaller places charge $800 those are either lofts or one room apartments. But everyone has these figures which are far from correct in being able to afford rent that high. Tobacco Row Starts at $950 that is with no view or apartment they are smaller than my space and costs more. They and the Box Factory Apartments have been the high end of the market but that is not the only places to live around here.
John_M you think a little too literal, but the prices will go up even in the cheapest places in Shockoe Bottom to keep up with the increase. Don’t tell me it that is not going to happen because it has been for the past 3 years I have lived in Shockoe Bottom. This sort of shows your lack of understanding how the market works in this area.
I have lived in larger cities and payed alot less in rent. As I have said before people are greedy around here. the only want to build and charge the highest prices and when that is all you have you lose the people who serve you your food and drinks and clean up after you. When they have to commute to this area price will go up. This is a fact you all seem to forget when you say they should be justified in renting what they do at the prices they are. Ask anyone who lives in a major city in California, or major cities like Atlanta and Chigago. If you don’t allow places that can be rented for 500 to 700 you will not be able to keep people in the area who are vital to this area.
I really am beinging to see how short sighted people are becoming wanting Development without planning. Chasing the dollar without considering the consequenses. Having no idea how things run in an area that everyone wants to exploit over actually helping.
Good thing I am buying a house and my morgage will be close to 200 less than what I am paying now and if I compaired square footage It would be close to 400 less.
Call me a doomsayer but after seeing this happen over and over again I will leave you to your limited vision and not bother to watch as Developers ruin what is made Shockoe Bottom a place that was nice to live in.
So SBD,
Congrats on buying a house. Being a homeowner will definitely change your perspective as to how things work in the real world.
When you sell your house, will you sell it for “what you paid for it” or will you try to make a “profit”? I’m curious as to whether your perspective of what you call “greed” will change.
If there is a lot of product on the market (whether the product is apartments, widgets, houses, cars, etc.), prices for that product will go down. Basic economics.
If no one will pay 900 bucks for an apartment, the cost of the apartment will go down.
There are two real keys to fixing up this area.
1) A couple folks have mentioned it, but the region needs JOBS to bring in the yuppie types who will make up the bulk of those moving into these kinds of high end cosmopoliton lofts / condos / apts / etc. + eat at the restaurants and drink at the bars, etc.
2) The city is talking about dramatically restructuring Gilpin Ct – ultimately demmolishing the existing buildings and dispersing the residents. They need to look at doing the same thing with Mosby Ct. South.
With all due respect to the many decent hard working folks who live in these communities, study after study shows that city projects breed scourges like crime, prostitution, drug use/dealing, and a general sense of hopelessness.
In fact, projects are an all-around loser: Of course maintining public housing directly drains public funds that might have been used for other things; But projects also indirectly erode resources by diminishing property values in surrounding communities, thereby reducing the tax base.
Another indirect impact, that of increased levels of crime, is harder to measure – but it certainly doesn’t do much for property values or encourage folks to live, work, or play around the projects.
Mosby Ct. South is literally directly across the Lee Bridge from MCV (one of the top 10 medical schools in the nation) and six or so blocks from historic St. John’s Church – a national treasure. It sits on prime real estate with a skyline view. I’m assuming this was allowed to happen during a time when Church Hill was in decline, but any urban planner worth a darn would have to question why it is still there.
Mosby Ct. is also about 6 blocks from this proposed development.
Any progress in the east end will be limited by its proximity to public housing.
Actually, more people living in the Bottom will create more jobs and more profit for restaurants and service providers. The servers would make more based on increased business and tips.
And let’s not even get started on the multiplier effect of all the workers that will build and service the building.
BTW- competition will make prices come down, not go up.
PointCounterPoint
I have a real firm grip on how things work in the “Real World” probably more than you do. If I was renting that house for 900 dollars a month over the years I have owned it which covers more than my responsiblities and never take care of the place you that would be about what they do. I am owning my place and not renting it out there is a big difference one you can’t seem to grasp.
It would be greed if I did nothing to keep the place up and let it go to seed and expect the next person to pay what I did and that is what is happening with most of those rental properties.
I am tired of dealing with people who really don’t get it. Having spent more than my fair share of time sitting through meetings that Go over these issues with people who make a living planning communities and reviewing what went wrong in situations like this I have a much longer view of what changes like these actually have.
Everyone seems bound and determined to drive right into the iceberg your welcome to do so I have no interest in rearranging chairs or watching as you all wonder what went wrong. Development without planning is foolish and short sighted but you all seem to think you know what you are doing.(they always do)
Have fun trying to convince people you all know about city planning because you played Sim City but when you get to see the real deal you might change your mind and gain a grasp of the “real world” as for me I don’t really care been on this ride before and it is not worth my effort trying to point out things you are determined to ignore.
Stick a fork in me I am done. Don’t care what you think so blather on it will be given the due attention it deserves.
Folks, this debate is going to seem pretty stupid (or sad) when all the funny paper collapses in price and the economy is dust.
The commercial real estate market is headed for a bust later this summmer, with a lot more stuff to follow. Squatters rule.
The big picture is daunting, and while I am not totally anti-development, there is still a lot of unsustainability and corporate welfare that needs to be worked out of the market. This City is still on the hook for the Broad Street CDA failure and Center Stage has not even opened and closed yet.
Point Counter Point has done a great job of lampooning community/environmental concerns with development, but the fact remains that this is a sensitive area. The crappy apartment buildings built built near VCU should serve as a warning. Is this really good infill?
@ the self proclaimed real estate and urban planning expert SBD.
A lot of the time number crunchers are right, but there are instances when they completely wrong. I have no reason reason doubt ZVAs numbers for income. It was based on very verifiable information.
Also, I’m curious where you received your formal education in real estate or urban planning or architecture; and how long you have been studying the metro richmond market(especially the city of richmond submarkets)
@PCP
a lot of apartments in Shockoe Bottom cost at least $1.00 per sq ft. anything below that and your probably living in a slum.
They haven’t even built the Ball Park yet and already it is spurring growth. The developers want to build here because it is a very desirable location.
Bottom, you say you are buying at $400/month less than rental. Then you say that you are paying $900 rent, so your mortgage is $500/month, by your own calculations. So that means your mortgage is well less that $`100,000 at today’s interest rates. Hell of a buy.
PointCounterPoint said:
“I would dare say the dumpy buildings that were torn down at 21st and Broad a few years ago “contributed†to the neighborhood. Once again, my advice for anyone looking to re-develop land is advised to leave the eyesore on their property until the land use is approved. People have short term memories about how bad it was before. ”
I well remember the double house that stood there and how for years it was talked about restoring them. It never happened and two more pieces of history disappeared.
I just hope that we don’t get some crappy ultra modern prefab mess there and that the CAR Guidelines for upcoming discussion will be altered “before” any final decisions on new infill designs are agreed upon.
Eric
Those houses were beyond salvageable. The entire property was a junk yard and salvage yard. Even Fred Sanford would have been embarrassed by it. It was such a great “gateway” to Church Hill-just like the McDonald’s and the vacant lots are now.
The site was then partially cleaned up and a metal smith used it for his shop for a while. No one made a move on the houses to save them and they were unrepairable.
While we are on “corporate welfare” would those that oppose it concede that the historic tax credits are also corporate welfare? Why give someone 45% as a tax credit for fixing up a building? It’s basically the taxpayers subsidizing the reconstruction.
I’d like to see the stadium get built as long as taxpayer’s money isn’t used. Let the developer, his investors and the lenders be “at risk”. Why should they take the risk? Profit motive and civic pride.
i wish those developers would buy mcdonalds and exxon and make parking decks since they love building parking decks so much..
Historic tax credits (and hopefully, someday Richmond, green building tax credits) are different from corporate welfare. They are incentives to follow government objectives like historic preservation, not pure cash handouts like we see today with the likes of Center Stage, TARP, and GM.
Speaing of which, if as taxpayers we are paying for the continued operation of Center Stage and GM, should we not have more say on who sits on the Board of Directors for both entities?
the houses were salvagable. the owner was determined to tear them down, went to the car asking for demo and car said no. owner then peeled back the metal roof to hasten the demise. the building inspector later approved the demo permit. remedy in va law is to put the historic property up for auction if owner asks to demolish and see if a buyer comes forward before approving demo. if the city and the car are so protective of historic districts why were they so mute?
@ #2 by PointCounterPoint
Funnies comment I’ve ever read here. Hoorah!
bill, I hear you loud and clear about that!
Same thing is happening with the Wills store at 401 N 27th. If the CAR is supposed to protect and oversee historic property then why have they fallen short so many times and not enforce their own guidelines? Case in point that the 401 building has a wooden extension built in 1859. Plans were drawn up to rebuild the section as part of a restaurant/apartment combo. They were supposed to incorporate the old exterior into the new construction and even spent a lot of time and effort propping up the walls to do so. But as construction began the walls started to disappear and now only 10% of the original materials have been used and are hidden framework around the 1st floor windows. Looks to have also altered the original “approved” plans by CAR concerning layout. So, if the CAR doesn’t enforce items they have approved then why believe they would protect historic property that hasn’t even gotten that far?
Eric
Why does anonymous even bother. It’s not like a secret identity.