Another take on Echo Harbor
Writing for Style Weekly, Thad Williamson describes the conflict and politics at the core of the Echo Harbor proposal:
Should the public allow high-rise condos in a flood plain that blocks public view of the river, the very view that led William Byrd II to name the city Richmond? The developers, Falls Church-based USP Rocketts LLC, argue in effect that we should simply ignore the downtown plan, and its attractive vision for making the river the centerpiece of a revitalized downtown, in answering that question.
In the developer’s view, what’s important is not how use of that property fits into the overall plan to revitalize downtown, but whether it can be used in a way that maximizes revenue to the property owners. That single-mindedness led USP Rocketts’ lawyer, James Theobald, to tell the Planning Commission on April 20 that the downtown plan failed to respect private property and even amounts to a regulatory taking.
I keep trying to look for a sliver lining in this Echo Harbour mess and find myself just more and more irritated by a city government that ignores the requests of its citizens in favor of developers. The only upside I can see is the unintended consequence of bringing more residents into downtown who won’t stand for the sideshow our elected representatives have become. Can you imagine an Echo Harbour resident responding to the Marsh/McQuinn get-out-the-ignorant-vote techniques of passing out $20 bills and hotdogs? It will be hilarious when they discover that their own cronyism, machine politics, and asleep-at-the-wheel governance will be their ticket out of public “service.”
As a side note, why the #$** is Harbor being spelled with an extra “u”? My fear is it’s a sign of more annoying affectations to come. Perhaps they’ll have a Shoppe or a Ye Olde 7-11 on the first floor too.
It just shows you that they plan to make this too expensive to live in just like most of the projects that most Developers try to sell. It is all about money most of the time.
It appears that most posters on these related subjects oppose a Special Use Permit or rezoning for the Echo Harbor (no ‘u’. Do you favor development under its current zoning, M2?
As I understand it, M2 permits heavy industrial, manufacturing, processing, research and development, warehousing, distribution, poultry processing and slaughtering, meat processing, blending of chemicals engine repair and storage of petroleum products.
SBD, they’re running a business! It’s about money ALL of the time!
Anyone else wonder where these developers get all the cash to pay $5.2 million for a trio of lots valued at $600,000 and to spend untold amounts over 3 years for a team of lawyers and lobbyist and at leasts 3 architectual redesigns, does it seem like these guys have more money than God? Well maybe that’s because it all comes from The Father, Sun Myung Moon, the self appointed second coming of Christ. The “Developers” USP Rocketts aka One Up Enterprises aka United States Property Development are all front business of the Unification Church. Their self reported mission is to promote the Unification Church in the US. They, unlike most developers, are really not interested in making money, for instance another holding of One Up is The Washington Times which has reportedly lost over a billion dollars, having never earned a dime while serving as a mouth piece for Moon. While the moonies haven’t faired so well recruiting in the US in the past decade or so and Moon himself at 88 is slowing down, the piles of money coming in from Japan and Korea fund all of these money losing organizations. If you want to talk about cronyism and hilarious Political Bedfellows Moon in 2004 still had enough spunk to get himself crowned as deity in a Senate Office Building with a dozen congressmen in attendence. http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/06/21/moon/index.html Imagine what honors Kathy Graziano and Bruce Tyler might bestow on the old boy at the Grand Opening if they get Echo Harbour built.
Although James Theobald is just trying to earn his hugh retainer, I find his comments and the position of the developers to be so arrogant, and have a screw the public attitude, that it defies description. Even if I was neutral in this discussion, I would be pushed over the edge in the way they are coming across. Their whole way of approaching this discussion is despicable and I hope they fail in their attempt to get this project off the ground.
I guess Style is getting bored attacking baseball in the Bottom. Now they have a new giant to kill. The main problem I have with the anti-development crowd, whom our completely unbiased weekly newspaper is the leader of, is that they offer no alternative plans to generate income for the City. They just know what they don’t like and so far it’s been every major development proposed in the last decade. It makes me wonder how they manage to balance their own checkbooks.
Heather #5, that is a bombshell and very interesting information. Thanks very much for posting it! Do you have any sources you can quote? I totally believe you, but I’d be curious to see other media sources take this story and run with it, it might shut down the whole idea of Echo Harbor.
Heather is correct, without the perjoratives. I think Style did something about this more than a year ago. At least, i read it somewhere.
Jeff if you read the entire article you will find that in other cities that have invested in public river front park development they have generated 4 to 5 dollars for every dollar invested, and provided public access to the river, that is the alternative plan. That and tourism is the plan, The Master Plan, have a look at it lots of people think it’s a great idea, even City Council voted for it.
Ron #9, I didn’t see it in Style or anywhere else. Well, I did see something about the use of the Senate office building for Moon and egg on a few faces but that was quite some time ago. Could you please try to figure out where you saw it? I would think if Style had done a piece on it, it would still be live news, particularly the way they keep trying to pursue this development. I’m truly horrified about the moonies being behind it. That’s the weirdest news I’ve heard in awhile.
Forgot to ask – just how does this condo help the unification church? That goes out to both Heather and Ron.
I could speculate that only moonies would live there but that’s just way to far out…..these are million dollar plus condos. As I recall, those who join the sect have to give up all worldly goods. So, they are going to say that the church is so big that it can build million dollar condos? And ignore all common sense about zoning, floodways, building in a floodway, the master plan, etc? How does that promote the “church”?
Well Jeff I think the development near the Firehouse looks like it will be interesting but how many Top shelf Condos Can you build that will remain empty?
“It appears that most posters on these related subjects oppose a Special Use Permit or rezoning for the Echo Harbor (no ‘u’. Do you favor development under its current zoning, M2?”
This is the same b.s. that Dominion’s lawyers spewed in its push for a Special Use Permit in front of Oregon Hill, ‘You better let the developers have their way, Oregon/Church Hill, or you will wind up with a chicken rendering plant.’ Yeah, right. What a load! These people are shameless.
Its not anti-development to demand BETTER, more appropriate development for the City. Don’t listen to their ‘no alternatives’ routine and never give up. Get to your Councilpeople NOW. Remember how Trani and the Richmond Renaissance corrupted Council before to get the Dominion SUP vote.
Heather is right. I also read about the moonie connection a while ago.
The article about the Moonies was written by Michael Martz; it was printed in the Times-Dispatch on Jan.11, 2008.
Heather,
Replace Unification (aka Moonie?) with Jewish (fill in the blank slang) in post 5.
Feel a little racist about your statement?
You should. “Those people”?…….
re#17 I think you’re correct that it is often used as a perjorative term but until you pointed it out that fact hadn’t occurred to me because it is so often used to describe Moon’s followers, and not necessarily in a negative way. I’m sure it was merely an oversight on Heather’s part.
Number 17- you are dead on. This is not a constructive conversation regarding the development of an important piece of land in our City.
Heather- this is no “bomb-shell”. The real surprise here is the way you and a few others are reacting to this unnecessary bit of side bar information.
Heather didn’t call it a bomb shell, I did. And I don’t understand why it is racist to discuss Moon or his “church.”
Did a little reading this morning on Moon and his church and I’ve come to the conclusion that everyone on this thread has been more than kind
Million dollar condos? I haven’t seen that. Where did that number come from or is it simply speculation?
If a million dollars isn’t the correct number, what is? $50,000? $100,000? (See CHA comments regarding the bus transfer station.) What price point would you prefer?
Speaking of our lovely park, I’ve noticed the grass is about 2′ tall on the slopes now. Anyone want to take any bets on when it actually might get cut?
Where “are” the champions of Libby Hill Park when they are needed to complain to the City about the lack of simple maintenance? Last time it was this tall it took a rape to get it cut. Look up “broken window syndrome”.
I’ve got an idea! Let’s build another park
No need to build a park. Let a wilderness grow. The investment? Drinkable water for future generations.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/poisonedwaters/
The slopes I see are cut, a simple call to the city usually suffices, I don’t see how a little tall grass after a lot of rain translates into we need a highrise destroying the view. And how much maintenance would the 68×900 foot flat piece of property need, the other 2 lots lots combined are less than 30000 sq. ft.
Just food for thought.
#25. As I suspected. You aren’t looking very hard. Get out of the car and walk to the edge of the hill.
See the 12″ weeds in the cobblestone road leading to Poe’s? See the 24″ tall grass on the slopes and lower portion of the park? All are in violation of the City’s own weed ordinance.
Honestly, some of us need to get out of our cars, take off the blinders and walk around more. If you call the maintenance of Libby Hill acceptable (and not just what can be “seen from the street when you drive home”) then we have very basic differences in the functions and responsibilities of government.
Personally, I think we should reforest the southernmost slopes of Libby Hill Park and get rid of the kudzu and groundhogs that will eventually create more landslides. The houses on Libby Terrace are only one more Gaston away from loosing their backyards.
However, those trees would block the historic view I guess.
Make that “losing”….clicked too fast on spellcheck.
#26 I walk on the paths you speak of daily, my dog and I just got back from our one of our thrice daily strolls (saw the park maintainence, guy complimented him on how the flower beds were coming on), my children and I go out twice a day, we all think it is beyond lovely. Do you have weeds in your yard this spring or is it perfectly maintained? Have you called the City yet about he grass? Yes, several of the steep terraces are a little shaggy, but most were mown on Friday. Have you noticed its raining again, grass grows and gets cut, buildings last a lot longer than tall grass, you’re comparing apples to oranges. I’ll take a little tall grass and a lovely view over a wall of condos any day. BTW contracts have been signed on the rebuilding of the hill behind the houses on Libby Terrace so you can stop worrying about that, too.
I don’t like Echo Harbor; I would urge the planning commission and city council not to grant a special use permit. But “viewshed?” Following this logic, those people at Wintergreen should not have been allowed to build the condos and single family homes, because it was in the “viewshed” of people in the valley. In the west, no construcion in the mountains where anyone can see it, because it’s in my “viewshed.”
I think Daniel boone was right when he said that when he could smell the smoke from a neighbor’s chimney, it was time to move west. Maybe they were in the “scentshed”.
Actually, I did complain to the Director of Public Works (and Parks as an FYI to them, but they don’t cut grass anymore.) about the grass cutting situation about 2 weeks ago….the same as I do every year. I have their emails on “speed dial” so to speak.
What’s weird is that I didn’t notice it cut as I walked up the hill on Saturday. I’ll check tonight.
And yes, I noticed it rained last week, but not the previous 2 months before they mowed it.
Contracts signed to repair the hill? Wow. I’m impressed. How many years did that take to accomplish? When does the actual work start? Some would argue that this is a natural erosion process and we shouldn’t fight mother nature. (What will become of those cute groundhogs?)
However, you have tacitly supported my point that the City can’t maintain what they have.
Here is one thing to do with groundhogs.
http://www.gamecalls.net/wildgamerecipes/groundhogrecipes.html
I love a debate as much as anyone else. However sometimes debate like posts shouldn’t be made unless one has at least a minuscule chance of making a point or at least lending credence to their position.
Post # 28 reminds me of the Monty Python skit concerning the argument over the parrot. The position fails miserably by stating a fact that can be verified in less than a minute’s time.
You frequently visit the park and state the grass is cut. You are incorrect. It is not cut. There is no logical argument you can make to prove that you are correct.
As of 5/4/09 at 6:00 PM the grass in the park beyond what can be seen from the street has not been cut in a long, long time.
Reread the third paragraph in post #26. Let’s not be an apologist for something most 12 year old kids can master in the ‘burbs. Grass cutting? Basic stuff. Basic, easy stuff. Stuff the city should be able to accomplish with relative ease. We’re not asking the city to build the Pyramids or the Hoover Dam.
Enjoy the video. Is the parrot dead just sleeping? I wonder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218
Eds good recipe! Back in my deer hunter days, we added a little sugar and vinegar to the soak to draw out the gamey taste.
The point, PointCounterPoint aka Libby Hill Resident, is that a little tall grass does not automatically equal fill every available open space with over-sized condos, no matter how often chicken little cries the grass is tall, the grass is tall. Time for Echo Harbour, and Baskervill to come up with a new talking point. The only perfectly maintained parks are owned by Disney.
Nice attempt to deflect the point I was making, but you would be wrong again.
I am with you Heather on this one. Lack of funding to maintain the parks does not equate to a reason for building Echo Harbour. It means we should put more money into our park system. Whether a park goes in the site or not, the real point that Baskervill, EH, et al. have seemingly forgotten (should I say in the interest of self preservation) is that they DO NOT HAVE the right currently to build this project. They are asking permission for an zoning exception, which the city does not have to give. Again folks, if we the public, do not want this we need to harass our council representatives and then hold them accountable come election time if they allow this project to move forward.
I think there is a comingling of a couple of related points here. You are right that EH does not have a right to a special use permit or rezoning. They do have a right to develop their propert under the M2 zoning. The city may not refuse an owner a reasonable and properly zoned use of his property. The proposed budget amendment in the CIP calls for a total of $7 M over the next five years to buy TWO pieces of proerty, (believed to be EH and Mayor Island,) neither of which is for sale. The proposed CIP amendments deal only with FY 10 and the $3 m there. They do not deal with the out year appropriations. If the mayor’s orgiinial budget were approved, and the money not spent, the appropriation does not necessarily carry over to FY11.
One more thing. The only council members to propose general fund budget amendments to increase park maintenance were President Graziano and Mr. Tyler.
The property is not zoned for a public park; why is that exception acceptable?
Talk about double standards people.
I think the point is that the EH developers crying foul over the city not allowing the rezoning (or really not allowing an exception that will allow them to profit off the endeavor) is the problem. If I went out and purchased said property and then went to city council to request an exception to the zoning to build a park, etc and was denied, the only person to blame would be MYSELF. These developers are in a pickle and are looking for us, the taxpayers, to BAIL them OUT. Sound familiar. This all stinks. And now the city council wants to fire the one individual that makes sense in this town. When school is over I am getting out of this BACKWARDS town.
G that is why they are the developers and most of us are not. They do whatever it take to make money.
ShockoeBottomDweller,
What is wrong with making a profit? How can companies exist if they don’t?
As a point of conversation, do you work for a private company, yourself, the government or are you a student?
SBD
Nothing wrong with making a profit. Just don’t be upset when you play the game, take a risk, and it come up negative in your favor. Buying a property with the intent to redevelop it, in a manner inconsistent with the current zoning contains an obvious inherent RISK. When I hear from the developer that they cannot make a profit without getting to a certain height, I feel sorry for them. Doesn’t mean we acquiesce to their demand. A simply, sorry you lost YOUR bet suffices for me.
#41 are you sure all developers are genuis’s at making money? The one thing you can easily find out about this purchase is that the 3 lots were assessed at under $600,000 before United States Property Development Corp. dba USP Rocketts purchased it for a reported $5.2 million. Maybe they were not so bright, and Jerry Cable got himself a nice dock and $5 million. After all they same company has lost $3 billion over the last 24 years on the Washington Times? Food for thought.
Well Point there is making a profit and then there is expecting everyone else to pay for your(their) greedy little mistakes. In this case the developer knew that this area was Zoned Industrial and still bought it with the idea they could just bribe( help is the word they would use)some of the down and out City Council people to do their bidding.
Businesses can make money and do quite well I have no issue if is done legitimately but that is not the case here. When these Developers strong arm the City they throw Ethics out the window and that is were I find the need to draw a line.
I work in two worlds for a private company that services the Federal Government and I know my company strives to go above and beyond when it comes to providing service and never have we had to strong arm anyone or Throw out Ethics or Standards for profit.
I am paid pretty well and I know we never had to Bribe or Contribute to anyone to make money. I Guess Morals and Ethics have been lost on most but some people still play by the rules. I expect the Developers to play by them as well so they either redesign or just cut their losses.
Please explain how lobbying city council to change the zoning is unethical.
Plus these developers haven’t asked for a dime of public money yet; how are taxpayers on the hook?
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It is okay to dislike the Echo Harbor project; everyone is entitled to an opinion. But the zoning arguement is ridiculous at best. If zoning laws are set in stone, how would tobacco row exist? Zoning changes all the time, why are developer ridiculous for believing they could lobby the city to change it.
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@ Heather: the assessed value of a property is not always equal to its fair market value. Would you sell your house for exactly what its assessed if there was demand for your house? I don’t think so.
“After all they same company has lost $3 billion over the last 24 years on the Washington Times? Food for thought.”
a loss of 3 billion over 24 years is not as awful or pathetic as you make it sound.
to be honest, it sounds a bit ignorant on your part. a company can be a going concern for quite some time if EBIT/operating income is positive despite net losses.
just some food for thought…
Concerned Citizen it is refered to as providing a bribe. You pay more when a City Councilperson takes money to do something that goes against already set plans. The folks who built Tobacco Row took over already existing buildings and they will not go for Echo park because it is competition. City Council tends to change its mind everytime someone flashes them cash and that is a matter of record. Also Councilpeople who are under incitement it is not hard to figure that there is corruption in the system.
#45 Actually every article I’ve read thinks a $3 billion dollar loss for a newspaper is astronomical, but you can Google it for yourself. As to assessment, no, I would not sell for exactly what it is assessed for but 10 times the assessment for an unimproved property in a floodway that had sold as recently as four years ago is a surprising investment I think, could you get ten times the assessed value for your house?
even thought they mostly took over existing buildings the fact still remains that forest city et all had to “lobby” city council to get the necessary zoning to go ahead with the tobacco row project.
last time i checked, lobbying wasn’t illegal. Why is it okay for neighborhood associations to do it, but not developers? Virtually any attempt to influence how your legislators shape the law is lobbying. letters, emails, pleas at public hearings, discussing you position with legislator over dinner, etc
please prove you bride accusation. which current city council members are taking bribes from the echo harbor developers?
What makes you think the big players in shockoe bottom don’t want echo harbor? echo harbor’s potential marketing efforts could bring more attention to tobacco row since it will most likely be used as a reference point in referring to echo harbor. notice how most shockoe apt ads use tobacco row as a reference point.
Again, I suggest getting to your Council representatives NOW.
Don’t allow them to put you off.
Most of the ‘lobbying’ happens outside of Council chambers, at a fancy restaurant or a ‘business meeting’. Also, don’t forget the informal Council meetings that happen during the daytime when most citizens have to work.
By the time the public hearing comes, its usually a done deal in Richmond. The fix is in.
Lots of emotionally loaded words flying around, to defame someone who might take an action with which you disagree. So let me pose this: if you say “the fix is in”, or you call a council member corrupt, then do one of three things. Go to the U. S. Attorney, go to the newspaper or out them on a blog. In the absence of any of these efforts, I have to assume you are just lying because you might not be getting your way. By the way, how do you know how Council members will vote? EH has not been before city council, or for that matter before the Planning Commission.
Concerned Citizen You just have to look at Court records for that I have no need to do your homework it is more fun to find it on your own. They are going to do more than Lobby it is a matter of history on projects like this. I know the big players don’t want it because they would be doing the lobbying for them. Seems kinda simple but hey you think they want competition for the same finite number of customers?
Why does everyone think we can have an infinite number of Expensive Condos in one area and not effect places currently there?
The fact we have so many people who used to be able to afford these places are now looking for jobs seems to not dawn on people?
It is supposed to do so many people so good but all it seems to benefit is the people who are developing the project?
Sometimes you can build only so much before you overdevelop and that is where were sit with another Developer promising that it will do the City so much good to build what we have already have in vast Surplus.
So you have work for all the people who would move there for lets see 289,000 and 200 a month? and that would probably be facing the train tracks.
Ron with several of the City Council members who are currently under indictment it is not so hard to consider corruption. I have no reason to lie but hey if your not willing to do your own research you can call anyone a liar but since you have no clue you might want to do some work before you pass judgment. I know because this is not my first time seeing a City Council playing things loose. Just ask the folks in Hampton they can tell you tales.
Well, this is certainly an edifying discussion. Unfortunately it’s largely crap. PointCounterPoint’s complaints about the grass on the slopes of Libby Terrace are truly a whiny irrelevance. It was not many years ago that a city worker died mowing those slopes when the tractor rolled over on him – not a pleasant way to die. PCP, are you suggesting that a Disney-perfect lawn is more important than a city worker’s life? Wet grass is slippery; slippery grass on a steep slope is a proven killer. If tall grass bothers you that much, take a cue from our local mountain bikers and their trails – go out and maintain it yourself. In reality, lawn grasses are inappropriate for steep slopes, particularly slopes with high clay content. The grassy slopes should be replanted with foliage with deeper root systems. Have you ever tried pulling up a bed of periwinkle? Make it a berry patch. Plant mint and subsidize everybody’s mojitos. Kill city workers to maintain a suburban lawn? What utter and total crap.
Re-#45 concernedcitizen: I have just pulled all property transfers in the City in Zip Code 23223 on the MLS tax service; a seller would be well advised to seriously consider an offer equal to the current assessment; a small percentage of sales since January 1 have been above the assessed value – a larger percentage have been foreclosures.
Further these developers may not have asked for a penny in cash from the city, but 5 years ago, when this all started they wanted the city to transfer title to Great Shiplock Park and they hired none other than Henry Marsh to assist them. These folks ain’t no angels.
Most developers in their position would have bought the land ‘subject to re-zoning’; the fact that they didn’t while paying a premium price suggests a lack of competence. They made a stupid purchase – the cost of the mistake is theirs to bear.
To paraphrase, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you are talking about a good chunk of change.
Anyone do business or fly with any of these companies?
GM 2007 loss- $38.7 Billion
Delta/Northwest 1st Qtr 2008 loss: $10.5 Billion
Honda 1st Qtr 2009 loss: $2.9 Billion
Citigroup 2008 losses: $5 Billion
Ford 2009 1st Qtr loss:$1.4 Billion
Washington Post 2009 1st Qtr loss: $19.5 Million
Washington Times estimated cash infusion since inception in 1982? $2 Billion over 26 years per Wiki.
Honda lost more money the first three months of this year than was put in the Times over 26 years.
Funny Honda is not asking to be bailed out or to be declared a necessary institution. just about all those other groups are taking Government money. Lets face it these Developers are not afraid to do what they think will make this disaster make them as much Money as they could managed to and that is not much if they can’t rezone. They thought they could bribe and bully their way out of this instead of calling it quits. I think it is funny none of the current rash of Developers want to do anything but build High End Condos.
ptaylor — what a gem you are! you and jon stewart can always be counted on to call crap when you hear it. thank you.
Bottom Dweller, No membes of Richmond City Council are under indictment. Period. And the attempted sale of part of Great Shiplock park was blocked in later 2004 by Councilman Bill Pantele, and led directly to the conservation easement on the James River Park system patroned by Council President kathy Graziano. I didn’t see any of you involved in those efforts.
Ron There have been City Council members in past and some assocaited with them who have been indited. Your period withstanding it is a matter of record. and Ron if you want to go far back why did you support the Union sacking of Richmond? City Council is far from clean and once in a blue moon they actually get stuff correct but they do have a way of changing everything when they are influenced by Developers with deep pockets. At least in Hampton they have the courtisy of getting caught in the same place doing the same thing. The Master plan was created to prevent Overdevelopment but if we go with every project that a City Council person gets lobbied with you might as well throw it all out. That is why they put a City employee in that position and not a Policy maker who needs money to get re-elected.
Bottom, Your phrase was “currently under indictment” Not true. The Virginia Public Access Project has a complete listing of all contributions to all candidates for City Council. No secrets. I think you will find that USP was not a big contributor.
I mentioned the 2004 vote because ptaylor mentioned Great Shiplock.
@ #54
again, the fair market value is almost always never equal to the city/county’s assessment value of home. why don’t you do 20 year analysis of assessed value versus fair market; i doubt you will draw the same conclusion.
@ SBD
last time i checked, honda was a japanese based company. it doesn’t deverse a penny of stimulus dollars. you also neglected to mention ford motor company asked for zero stimulus dollars.
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real businesses are in business to make money. the developers would have cut their losses a long time ago if they didn’t think shockoe bottom was a gold mine. plus you seem to know a lot of info about echo harbor that is not public yet. do you work on their staff?
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unfortuantely for echo harbor opponents, they aren’t doing anything illegal. what a shame when developers want to go through the legal channels to get things off the ground. too bad no current city council members are blatantly involved in illegal activity. i guess richmond doesn’t deserve decent city council members like the ones we have now.
Ford did ask initially ask for funds that is a matter of record.
There is legality and then there is moral and ethical issues and that is where most companies have seem to depart.
As for City Council they may seem clean but as with most elected posts have the capability of being economically persuaded. I have nothing against the current council but they are far from being the saints you paint them.
And my Mention of Honda was that point it is a business that makes a profit where as the rest of the companies that were used in the example have all begged for money including Ford.
David you should remember just because they say it is transparent does not mean it does not happen. Funny how people claim it can’t happen and yet we find several other examples all around the commonwealth and that can’t happen where they live? ok is it Ron/Dave or Dave/Ron? Now I begin to see people are genuinely surprised when they find the truth.
No, they aren’t doing anything ‘illegal” right now. But, they bought the land knowing they would need a favor from council to have the area re-zoned for their purposes before they could build.
Don’t waffle. You were factually incorrect. Now, of course “most elective posts have the capability of being economically persuaded…” So do non-elective posts, so do most people in ,most places. That is a world away from saying that these council members have done anything except disagree with you. So please, if you have evidence of wrong-doing, a violation of law, or code, bring it forward. Suppose I were to tell you thatn there is documented proof that Rachel Flynn was taking the anti-EH position because she has a financial interest in a competing development? Now that is absolutely not true, but my evidence and statement is just as valid as your allegations of corruption.
Who is waffling? With Hedgpeth gone I am incorrect but she was on the Coucil and found guilty of the very charges we are arguing and you say it it can’t happen would be as wrong. Flynn had done her job and that is to defend the Master Plan which she helped build so why would she need any other interest? The one thing is Hedgpeth is not ancient history and is a perfect example of what can go wrong with City Council. and I still say Dave was ProUnion and making fun of Confederates.(Just kidding on the last part don’t care if you were on either side of that deal)
Never said it can’t happen. Not even saying that it is not happening now. Simply saying there is no evidence of it, no signs of it. Hedgepeth was more than five years ago, and if you read the transcripts, more dumb than crooked. But this is off point. The Planning Commission has the right and responsbility to recommend changes to the DMP, which they did. Council has the right and responsbility to amend the master plan. Exercising that right, even in a way you might not like, is not a corrupt offence.
My point remains, regardless if the ‘lobbying’ is technically illegal or not. Again, I have been through this before with Dominion Power’s SUP. City Council tends to go with big money’s plans instead of public sentiment. They will make deals with each other behind the scenes. Get to them NOW and make it clear what is at stake.
Hedgepeth was still in office up to 2 years ago when they sent her to trial all that shows is that the rest of Council can learn from her mistakes.personally I think both Flynn and City Council are playing down and dirty and neither side is the good guy.
People before money inspite of the themselves Scott you know they have no understanding of that concept
Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but I thought it worthwhile to point out that the area proposed by echo harbor was partially submerged by yesterday’s flooding.