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June 30, 2008Goldman and West to propose school uniform policy7th District School Board member Keith West will join mayoral candidate Paul Goldman at an 11AM press conference at Bellevue Elementary School to discuss “the need for a citywide school uniform policy”. The announcement quotes West as saying that “Goldman is the only candidate willing to challenge the failed status quo and call for a badly needed citywide School Uniform policy. He will be the Education Mayor.” 200 Responses to “Goldman and West to propose school uniform policy” |
I’m not sold on a school uniform policy. I think both Goldman and West need to do a little more reading and research here.
Check out http://www.geocities.com/school_uniforms/abstract98.html and here is their conclusion:
“Based upon this analysis, the authors were forced to reject the ideas that uniforms improved attendance rates, decreased behavioral problems, decreased drug use, or improved academic achievement. The authors did find that proschool attitudes from students and their peers and good academic preparedness did predict the desired behavior. They saw that wearing uniforms did not lead to improvements in proschool attitudes or increased academic preparation.”
We already have standardized tests, do we need standardized dress? Soon only students with parents who can afford good private schooling, will be taught to think for themselves and enjoy their rights to freedom of expression.
Let us look at the places that do have uniforms: prisons, CCP(for profit alternative school for disruptive children), catholic schools….I also find it interesting to see what countries in the world have uniforms and which ones don’t: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_uniform . With the exception of the United Kingdom, western European students exercise their rights to freedom of expression. Even Russia abolished uniforms in 1992. Places like Pakistan and countries in the far east have uniforms…We need to think about this. Part of education in America should be teaching our children about their rights and about the law of the land, the U.S. constitution.
I agree with the current public school dress codes and they should be enforced, however, it is unfair that West is pushing for our children to wear uniforms while his children attend private school.
Goldman has proposed that RPS move towards a school uniform policy. Implementation details would be deferred to the School Board. Individual schools would have the option to opt out of the program.
The paper and one of the TV stations were there.
Given that I’ve already had one request for Hot Wheels tennis shoes from my four-year-old because another kid in his school had them, I’m not ready to write off school uniforms. The major advantage to me would be not having to think about what to put on their little bodies every day.
I don’t expect uniforms to keep my kid in school or keep him off drugs - that’s my job. I’m also not worried that my sons will lose their ability to think for themselves if they’re wearing khaki pants and white shirts to school every day - they’re uniforms, not mental straitjackets.
Also, the aim of that study seems to have been to criticize school uniforms - some of the language doesn’t seem very professional for an unbiased study.
Jennifer C., I don’t have a problem with choosing a school that mandates uniforms, however, I do take issue with not having a choice at all. Here is something my 10 year old wrote and asked me to post:
“I think that all of the children should take a vote about the uniforms. After all, we’re the ones who have to wear them. I personally like casual dress. The way you dress is a way to express yourself. It’s interesting to see if someone is a tomboy, really girly, gothic, or a hippy by how they dress. But with uniforms everyone looks the same. And in school you don’t get a lot of time to talk and get to know each other, because you’re busy studying.”
Do you want your kids to get to know someone because of his/her wardrobe?
“…and call for a badly needed citywide School Uniform policy….”
I can’t help but ask this of Goldman and West…have either of you actually spent anytime inside a classroom at Bellevue?
What schools have you spent time in that indicates uniforms are “badly needed?” Mary Munford? Chimborazo? Open High? Armstong? I’m curious.
Jennifer C.,
How about a little praise for a child writing out her opinion in her own words?
Did you read her comment about voting?
Now I have to ask you, do you have children in RPS? If not, where do you plan on sending them?
I suspect they’re addressing the poverty/social aspect of the uniforms rather than any potential behavior modifications they could produce.
I suspect they’re are attempting to address all of the issues you mention in #8.
WHOA. I wasn’t aware that I had to pat your daughter on the virtual head before I could express my adult/parental/taxpayer opinion.
I read what she posted and think it’s great that she wrote out her thoughts, and I would have concurred completely when I was ten. Now I’m thirty-seven and my viewpoints have changed, which is why I asked you if you want your children to interact with other kids because of how they’re dressed.
I don’t expect fourth-graders to understand all the social and financial aspects of the decision, and until they start buying their own clothes I don’t think they should get a vote.
As for my family, I have two children, one of whom will begin pre-K this fall. The other one is two years behind him.
Pre-K at RPS, I should specify. I’ve also owned a home here for fifteen years, and I work for the city. Is that good enough for you, or do I need to wait until I’ve had a kid kicked out of RPS to say anything?
It really annoys me when people poo-poo someone else’s opinons because their experiences are different. Even Keith West has a right to an opinion - he lives here, he pays taxes here, and he has every right to send his kids wherever he damned well wants to.
“…do I need to wait until I’ve had a kid kicked out of RPS to say anything?” Why did you say that?
Jennifer my concern of choice is for those who cannot afford private school and must use RPS.
Regarding your question “I asked you if you want your children to interact with other kids because of how they’re dressed”: This isn’t a concern because my children have friends who are poor to wealthy, black and white, and of different cultural and religious back grounds. They are not choosing their friends based on dress. My child’s opinion was based on the question of uniforms.
By the way, I speak with West often and we agree on many things but I disagree with a city wide mandatory uniform. And my opinion is based on our experience in RPS at the elementary level and I don’t see uniforms being a priority in the school my children attend.
“do I need to wait until I’ve had a kid kicked out of RPS to say anything?”
Below-the-belt, bad sportsmanship.
Getting so ugly kind of blew your otherwise-decent points for me. Just thought I’d virtual let ya know.
I’m not sure who Jennifer is referring to because my children are sporting perfect student records. My opinions are based on what I see going on in the schools. Now if she is referring to my kid(s), well, that would be libelous.
Uniforms would certainly help us cash-strapped working moms, especially those of us with more than one child in school. Buying school supplies is hard enough, the back-to-school wardrobe can just about break the bank.
Another plus I see is the it would be easier to eliminate the wearing or imitating of “gang colors”.
Jennifer, like you I support the PHI and I’m thinking you took it personally that I said something against uniforms because the charter will require them. Uniforms at Patrick Henry wouldn’t bother me a bit because I’m drawn to the innovative science and art curricula there.
In regular RPS we already have standardized tests, worksheets, and very little hands-on projects. I wouldn’t want to also impose uniforms. Maybe it would be a good idea at the middle school level…I don’t know. Come fall my child will be entering a very innovative program at a private middle school that does not require uniforms but it is also not coed.
Good points nadine. Maybe parents should vote whether or not to have uniforms at their particular school.
re 15: My understanding was that it was a nasty inference made based on comments made on other threads about negative treatment, and having felt run out of another RPS school.
Poor form.
West said today that the current policy is an opt-in uniform policy, in that individual schools can choose to implement a uniform. My understanding of his comment was that this had not happened anywhere because parents had not demanded it. The new proposal makes having uniforms the default, and would require parental organization to opt out of.
Goldman is proposing that this could be implemented for the beginning of the 2008-2009 school year, which seems quite fast considering how many folks would need to be brought on board.
“…and having felt run out of another RPS school.” The administration at Cary chased out wonderful teachers and in-zone families for over three years. Like us, none of these folk were “kicked out.” We were bullied. And like my kids, these in-zone families’ kids have perfect records. And the teachers landed jobs immediately at well touted schools.
Poor form indeed. Attacking a child is gross.
“Poor form indeed. Attacking a child is gross.”
Yeppers. And that’s what I’m saying. Twisting a vulnerable and painful situation, in a public forum, in order to discredit a parent’s argument, simply because there is a difference of opinion, is pretty cruel.
Couldn’t see it happening without calling it out, that’s all.
Thanks.
Okey doke. First off, I wasn’t referring to Gray’s kids - as far as I knew, her daughter is at Bellevue and is doing fine. I know she’s been involved with a lot of discussions about problems experienced with administrators at other schools, but I’m not “twisting” anything. My impression of their kids being pulled out of Cary was that they’d been pulled out. You’re being oversensitive. Incidentally, Shannon, did you have anything to say about uniforms or were you just being the Internet Police?
Now, I have some other comments.
Gray said,
No, you didn’t “have to ask.” The only reason you asked was so that you could determine if I am qualified to have an opinion. Please explain any other reason for asking that question. I used the “kicked-out” thing as an extreme example of What Can Go Wrong, since I wasn’t sure what level of experience with RPS would be “enough.”
…which will allow her
Which is sort of my point.
I’m not trying to attack Gray, I’m just trying to point out some inconsistencies. I really don’t care if my kids have to wear uniforms except for the thoroughly selfish reason of not having to think in the mornings. They have two older cousins who will supply them with clothes for the rest of their minority, so my clothing budget is pretty minimal. A uniform policy would certainly be nice for those who are older-cousinless, though.
I take back my snark at Shannon. I’d just walked back into the house from running errands and I really didn’t need to find someone who doesn’t know me calling me cruel and twisted. Eh.
Just being the internet police. Making citizen’s arrests, that sort of thing. It’s too hot to play outside. Plus, all this heat makes me really oversensitive.
Not sure what you were referring to when you were talking about kids getting kicked out of school, then. Would love to understand why that was worked in there if it wasn’t a dig. The backpaddling was pretty weak in post 24.
And sure - I’m a mom, and I might have an opinion. But this is not really my flavor of debate. I’d much rather be relaxed than right, especially since I can see the value in both viewpoints.
And in the immortal words of Jackie Moon, “Everybody Love Everybody!”
Thanks for the take-back. I apologize for harshness, too, and misinterpretation of your intent. Just seemed really out of line, and if I read that mistakenly and was wrong, I apologize for that, too.
Let’s kiss and make up! :)
(and yes, I am really laughing right now at this goofyness…)
When I was growing up there was always a huge problem where kids were tormented if they couldn’t afford the latest shoes or name-brand clothing. I think having uniforms would help eliminate some distractions.
I don’t know if a uniform is completely necessary but even having a dress code that says they have to wear slacks and a button-up shirt could help.
It reminds me of something the actor Aston Kutcher once said. He wears a suit coming to the set every day because it reminds him that he is there to WORK.
I think people under-estimate the creativity of kids. They will find little ways to express themselves. Hair, backpacks, jewelry, etc. And kids can wear whatever they want once they are out of school.
If I’m not mistaken the Mayors responsibility will be the day to day operation of the City of Richmond set forth by the policies that City Council makes and the School Board is the policy maker for school and the superintendent’s role is to carry out those policies and handle the day to day operations of school as set forth by the school board.
I think school uniforms are a good idea, but they are not a cure all, especially considering the social disaster that constitutes home life for so many urban children.
There is a reason that immigrant children exceed their peer, whether in the suburbs or the city. They have a strong family life that values and pursues education. Goldman and West are not the only ones who care about education or children.
Not one intitiative is gong to dramatically change RPS’s but why the heck not atleast get started. As a parent with 2 kido’s in RPS I don’t mind the idea of uniforms actually I would embrace this initiative and thank Goldman for having enough guts to throw it out there.
You eat an elephant one bite at a time and we all know the whole elephant needs to be eaten but dang let’s get started. So I say “why not”?
Jennifer,
After a small discussion on uniforms, my daughter asked if she could write up her opinion and post it. In the moment it seemed like a good exercise and she was so excited. By the way, she also has a pro uniform arguement too –she called it an “equalizer.” She couldn’t wait to see a response then she read your first post #5. She frowned and responded, “She’s not very nice,” then she turned her back to the computer. I agreed and comforted her. I didn’t allow her to see anymore. It was a big mistake to post her comment on a blog –I’ve learned my lesson. Next time I’ll encourage her to write to the letters to the editor of the TD or Style or go before School Board like countless other children where they are applauded for their writing or public speaking ability and courage.
Jennifer C., I know you are a huge supporter of the charter and I think that is good. But just because I disagree with one aspect of the charter, i.e. uniforms, being implemented in the regular RPS does not mean I’m against the charter. I’m considering entering my youngest in the lottery if RPS is unable to challenge her and have recommended folk here in the east end to apply.
Jennifer, I want you to know that my question you didn’t like came after my daughter’s hurt look.
It was also a big mistake for me not to check the response before allowing my daughter to see it. It is a harsh world.
[...] At Church Hill People’s News there’s a lively discussion underway about what may be a political issue that will matter to this year’s local elections. It’s about mandating a uniform/dress-code in public schools citywide. Click here to look/get in the act. [...]
I don’t expect people to let their kids read weblogs, and I’m sorry her feelings were hurt. However, I didn’t denigrate what she wrote - I simply didn’t acknowledge it because I thought I was talking to adults, and a ten-year-old’s opinion is not germane to the discussion. If you had specified that she would be reading responses, I might have done some cheerleading.
Also, I don’t think you’re against the charter. I think you’re for getting the very best education for your kids and as many other kids as possible. I just get a bit bristly at the way you put things sometimes.
Glad to see the Fan Hub is chiming in. I’ve been checking out their blog and not much is happening.
Here is a little something from the ACLU http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/29021res19991104.html .
I’m still not sold on uniforms, however, I am comforted just a tiny bit by John Murden’s post #20: “The new proposal makes having uniforms the default, and would require parental organization to opt out of.”
Before saying yes to uniforms, everyone should be well informed of the arguments on all sides.
If our school system was more trust worthy and if our nation wasn’t under the patriot act and the bubble standardized tests, I might not be so pessimistic regarding uniforms. Everyone must remember that it is our constitutional right to choose the dress of our own children and that, yes, children too have the right to freedom of expression.
I remember well rebelling against my school uniform but I didn’t have a choice because I was in private school.
A stricter dress code would make more sense.
I’d like to clarify something. I am a new blogger on this site and appreciate everyone’s views and opinions. I come to this blog because the area I live in doesn’t have an active one. Not that it doesn’t exsist, just noone does anything on it. So thanks for letting me chime in on this one. I admire and respect the activism and I do know that the true activism is the only way anything is going to change in Richmond.
Jennifer, “I get a bit bristly at the way you put things sometimes too.”
Good to have you over here Vicki. Like Church Hill, the CHPN is where it all started.
Gray, you know I completely respect your views and opinions, but it is much more difficult to enforce “dress code” than it is to have uniforms. I’m not completely sold on uniforms either, but our adm staff with the schools shouldn’t have to spend time administering the dress code. A uniformed dress code would be could be more time efficient and in the long run benefit the kids.
I now you and you turned out pretty darn good and you wore uniforms. So why not?
I wore uniforms only for a few years, three years at St. Benedicts and two years at St. Gertrudes and I can’t tell you what a relief it was to be out of the uniform, especially in high school. But I do remember well the excitement of choosing my own clothes going into public school, third grade. Uniforms always felt oppressive and I couldn’t wait to get home and shed the school suit. I much preferred picking out my own clothes in public school and it increased my enthusiam about getting up in the morning and going to school.
In high school the uniform did not equalize the classes whatsover, not of economics, or cliques. Kids know –can’t hide it with a uniform. All in all uniforms didn’t enhance nor take away from education. I think RPS has bigger fish to fry than this whole uniform thing. I say implement the innovative programs, like the science and art ones over at the charter, instead of wasting our time with the uniform.
Let’s strike a deal, if all of downtown administration and School Board wear uniforms like the teachers in the Harry Potter movies, then I might change my mind.
Once again I state, there are alot of things that need improvement in our schools and the on going saying is “there is always something bigger or more important” and still nothing happens. This is RPS mantra. This has kept RPS at a status quo which I can’t allow for my kids or any others.
And it seems to me that on this blog everyone is thinking of the big picture not just their “own” such as myself.
I’m not negating your opinion, I just think this isn’t the biggest deal we are looking at. RPS is famous for “distractiing” parents with samller issues, lets not allow this. So my kids wear a uniform, big deal. Let’s make sure their teachers are qualified and able to teach to all childresn etc…
I always appeciate those who look at issues that aren’t important to me. Sometimes it is just a little tough to understand why. I tend to look more at the big picture.
See, I’m of the opinion kids have a right to the freedom of expression up to a certain point. But don’t we all? We have a right to freedom of speech, but only to a certain point, yes? We can’t incite a riot or use slanderous speech…..
When those around you start using offensive language, do you correct them or ask them to stop? The same can be said for clothing. It’s all good to say we have rights to this particular “freedom”, but it’s something we really aren’t “free” to do when you think about it.
If someone were walking down the street with a racial/gender slur on their t-shirt, would we not find that offensive?
So how far does this “freedom” really go and are we willing to take it all or nothing?
For kids I don’t think it should go far especially when it’s the rich kids dumping on the poor kids because they don’t have the latest style in shoes or jeans. Standardized uniforms could, like Gray’s daughter said, become an “equalizer” thus truly putting all kids on equal footing and taking away once piece of the joking/teasing puzzle that is adolescence.
And that is why I am for them.
Kudos Crystal. As a parent, I feel my kids have a little say so but I am the parent, at least til they turn 18 which gives me a little time. I’m all for empowering them but I must decide what’s right. And once again I say, why not? I’m not for or against uniforms, it just isn’t the fish I need to fry.
I have looked all around this thread - clicked links and everything - and I might be being blind, but I am not seeing what this uniform proposal is in response to… What is the issue that they are seeking to rectify? Is it midriffs? Sagging jeans? I’m interested to understand why this topic is even being proposed at this point. Might be right in front of me, and I am just not seeing it.
In any case, the main question I might have with the concept is where does it stop? My son has dredlocks - would he have to cut his hair? What about the girls that experiment with too much eye makeup like lots of us did in the 80s? (and I have the photos to prove it!) How tight is too tight? Because uniform blouses can get pretty tight, too. As a bona-fide Catholic girl, I can tell you that from experience. Should everyone be wearing big tan sweatsuits so that their budding sexuality stays under wraps? Is this the problem, or part of it? Who decides what is too much?
And what is the main point? Is it to equalize, or is it to eradicate expression due to perceived vulgarity? And whose perception are we working with there? Because as someone said, uniforms will not make a poor person seem rich, or vice versa.
Expression? Economics? What is the supposed problem that we are looking to fix?
From personal experience, especially at the high school level, the uniform was not an equalizer. Everyone knew who the tomboys, pretty girls, popular kids, rich and poor kids, outcasts, and even who the punk, preppy, and hippy kids were.
Uniforms also won’t be able to mask that RPS is separate and unequal. Making a good education available in all districts would put all kids on more of an equal footing.
And it did upset me to see Goldman and West(and I like both of them) standing before Bellevue talking about uniforms instead of this very school being on a chopping block for years. I believe it has had a huge psychological effect on the school. A school without a future is a school not worth building upon. Downtown is unwilling to fix it, make it ADA compliant, and even our district rep. West found it unsuitable for his kids. Would uniforms change his mind? I don’t think so. I say implement programs, etc. that would entice West to send his kids to RPS.
I teach a lower grade level in an RPS school. I’ve taught in a school that “required” uniforms and one that did not. I place the word in quotation marks because the administration could not force the students to wear uniforms, just repeat the saying “this is a uniform school”.
From my point of view, the uniforms didn’t seem to make too much of a difference. The students who wore them weren’t any more focused or well-behaved than those who didn’t. The students wearing jeans and a “Bratz” or “Dragon Ball-Z” t-shirt didn’t pick on the students who wore the obligitory navy blue/white/khaki.
In the school where uniforms were not required, I only witnessed one incident where students discussed what another student was wearing.
Although I find it to be acceptable for schools to not have a uniform policy, it is disturbing to consistently see children coming to school in expensive clothing while parents claim to not have the means to afford school supplies.
I don’t know what was said by these men regarding school uniforms, but I thought I’d throw in my humble opinion as an everyday observer.
This may be beneficial in a middle or high school setting, but in the elementary world (at least lower elementary), it may not be necessary.
It seems parents forget (in getting caught up in the “free speech” deal) the end of the story. What is best for children at a young age? To have respect for authority, to study hard and achieve, to get along with others.
I am of the opinion based on visits and observations of RPS and my two children who attended public schools and are now out in the workforce, uniforms in early school years are a good thing.
Too many parents raise their children as little adults with what they want taking precedence over what is best for them. In the long run, this does not help in the workforce but can actually hinder advancement.
The world doesn’t revolve around little Suzy or little Tom. Best for them to not be distracted in early years but to get on with the business of learning and respect for authority and others.
And to your point, Miss Teacher, my mother was a cafeteria manager for 30 years (retired last year) in Chesterfield and was always amazed at the expensive clothes the free lunch kids wore and the luxury cars the parents drove. Not to say kids should be downtrodden and look dirty for reduced lunch, but again respect is lacking.
I believe uniforms would be most beneficial at the younger grades (elementary and middle). It would really help out the parents expenses. But by the time they get to high school, I think it is more appropriate time for kids to “express” themselves fashion-wise. Plus, by then, if the kids want special expensive clothes, they could buy it themselves with money from an after school job.
Also, as a parent of a middle-schooler, those early teen years are the scariest for the parents. For the first time, kids are left alone, must make new friends, and attend (in most cases) an RPS middle school, most of which have a repuation for being a bit rough. A school uniform would really level out the playing field a bit and, especially, would eliminate being able to dress like a gangster. I know for a fact that the dress code is not well-enforced and kids go to school every day wearing their ‘hood styles. It’s hard to convince your child not to dress that way in 6th grade with all the peer pressure if everyone else has saggy jeans and a white T at school.
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/29021res19991104.html .
I’m very serious about not accepting government mandated uniforms. It might seem insignificant to some but I was raised that you do not sign away your constitutional rights and dressing yourself and kids the way you want(w/in reason at school of course) is a right protected under the U.S. constitution. It scares me when people easily write off their rights like it’s no big deal. Every constitional right, big and small, chipped away is dangersous. Look how many people rolled over as Bush signed the patriot act? They thought “no big deal… who cares if the government wire taps me because I know I’m a law abiding citizen.” Rememer when speaking out against the invasion of Iraq you were labeled unpatriotic? Remember the quiet college campus as we attacked Iraq? I wish their parents had gotten “caught up in the free speech deal” just a wee bit.
Miss Teacher, Thank you for your observations. Dress has not been a problem at my children’s RPS school either and has not taken away from their studies. And now I know that at a public “uniform school,” students continue to wear what they want.
I like Goldman but between the Cary St. mall stuff and this uniform thing it is reminding me of a Gilmore ploy to gain votes and a Bush distraction tactic –Gilmore and his “no car tax” and Bush telling us to shop while he signed away our rights. I’m ready for Goldman to talk about his great ideas and plans because right now, he is scaring me. Calling Goldman the “Education Mayor” is eerily reminiscent of Bush’s label on himself.
(Maybe I don’t like Goldman, I just like Don’s writing against his opponents on the SaveRichmond blog –he writes with crushing wit.)
I back Goldman all the way. He’s got balls, not gall. Anyone who gets “let go” by Wilder is the candidate for me!
Now I am torn… i hate this idea but I have my long stating rule of always going against whatever the ACLU is for…
Rev. Jones was right. It should be about the education and learning. What the hell does uniforms have to do with education? It looks like Goldman is looking for something to run on. He’s one of the reasons why the city is in shambles now.
mike, Here is a paragraph from the ACLU link: “In December 1965, Mary Beth Tinker, John Tinker and Chris Eckhardt, three teenagers from Des Moines, Iowa, were suspended for going to school wearing black arm bands to protest the war in Vietnam. Represented by the ACLU, the students and their families embarked on a four-year court battle that culminated in the landmark Supreme Court decision: Tinker v. Des Moines. In Tinker, the Court ruled that students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.”
So mike are you “always going against whatever the ACLU is for…”
And for all those against kids having freedom of speech, would that include children being banned from freedom of religious expression in school? Should they take off their crosses, veils, star of davids? Remember we have separation of Church and State (thank goodness) but that does not mean students “shed” their constitutional rights of freedom of speech and expression in the school.
Gray, I think mike was being sarcastic.
Oh…you never know on this blog or in this country…after all Bush was appointed President two terms in a row and the second time he claimed he had a mandate from the people.
Thanks Nadine.
I ask again - why now?
What is the supposed problem that this proposal is designed to eliminate? Has anyone on the proposal side stated any reasoning behind this?
Anyone? Because I really think this is key.
If you had a job that required a uniform, you would wear it. If the school requires a uniform, your child will wear it. As for the schools that require one but don’t enforce it…Shame on them and shame on the parents! My children are required to wear uniforms, and I darn sure make sure they are in it when they walk into that school.
Do my kids love wearing uniforms? No. Does it teach them a valuable lesson about rules and regulations, as well as the consequences for not following society’s (the school) rules? Yes. They have ample opportunity to change their clothes after school and on weekends and wear (almost!) whatever their hearts desire.
Petersburg instituted school uniforms this past year at the elementary school level; the middle school level will start this upcoming year. The high school will have no uniforms. Not sure to what extent the region’s districts look at what the others are doing? There was lively debate on the subject here prior to the policy being passed. It could be interesting to Richmond parents considering this proposal to talk to Petersburg elementary school parents that were for and those that were against, to see what their thoughts are today, now that a year with the uniforms has passed.
Guilty Mom, Like you, if I chose a school that mandated uniforms, I would enforce it but I’m opposed to Government mandating uniforms. Even Russia, who experiemented with equalizing the people, abolished school uniforms in 1992.
Dress has a lot to do with discipline. Can you go to work with clothes that are too big, too tight, too revealing? Can you wear shirts that promote drug use or are sexually explicit?
This is not just about one school, if it were I’m sure it wouldn’t be an issue. RPS has a dress code that is hard to enforce in certain schools. What should the school do? If parents are not in favor of uniforms then they have to be supportive of the dress code. I make sure my child goes out of my door appropriate everyday an I’m sure each of you posting are doing the same. So obviously this is not about us. I also believe in freedom of expression but I believe everyone has a different idea of what freedom of expression is. One writer noted “hood styles” which to her is not appropriate. But to me as long as it’s not too big, has offensive language or sexual references and in not associated with what the police consider “gang clothing” it’s ok even if it is urban wear.
The partnership has to come from both sides if we are asking our school system to reform then parents also have to be willing to reform. An wearing a uniform is not giving up freedom of expression. There are other ways to express your individuality beyond your clothing. Hair, jewelry and shoes come to mind.
I ask again what should the school do? Send a child home? Call a parent? How many times do you send a child home for being dressed inappropriately? How many times will a parent come to school and bring a child a change of clothes? A child at home is a child not being educated. A parent not complying is a parent who says my child has “the right to freedom of expression”. We ask a lot of our schools and feel like they are not giving us what we were asking for but what are we willing to do to help. My child can wear navy slacks and a white shirt as long as RPS does a better job of educating him. If I sent him to a private school he would be required to wear one and I would pay twice (tuition and uniform cost) for him to do so. Why is it if I agree with the education the school provides I can agree to give up my rights? Maybe we should ask private educators why they require uniforms?
I play point and counter point for a reason. Right now this really isn’t an issue because not one of the current school board members have suggested this and we are not sure if any the new members will but it’s really some thing to think seriously about. For those of you who only see the one school their child attends try thinking of it this way. RPS would not have the repetition or problems it has if the system was filled with the” good school “ your child attends.
What an interesting discussion this has turned into! I’ve never posted here before- but wanted to throw in my observations & opinions.
I’ve been an educator at a Museum in Richmond for many years and have seen classes from most RPS elementary schools (as well as the surrounding area)- where I work as well as on school grounds. Having the chance to see more individual classes than any mayoral canidate or school board member likely has, I’ve come up with my own conclusions about this matter. Since I typically only spend half an hour with each class, I only get first impressions on the behaviors (respect for teachers, students, manners, etc) of students. My coworkers and I have noticed that RPS students in uniforms are usually well behaved. Not to say that ununiformed children never behave well, but when a group on students in uniforms walk in the door, we rarely have behavioral problems with them. I know this is not uniforms/dress code alone- parents and teachers play the major role here.
To reference post 28- Maybe the kids realize that it is school time, not play time. (really? did I agree with Ashton Kutcher?? :) I know I would have been felt different as a child if I had to wear a uniform. I also would have spent less time, tears, and fights with my mom if I had been forsed to do so. Lastly, despite the trends we all experienced in the past, to me there seem to be way more kids today that dress beyond their years. I am often distracted (from shock) when I encounter kids in my classroom, or out in public, that are in clothes that you might see Britney Spears wear on a tabloid cover. Let kids dress as kids!
Lot of teachers looking like Britney Spears too wearing skin tight shirts exposing ringed belly butttons and stamps on lower backs, or plunged necklines showing off the butterfly on the boobs. My daughter class would see the tattoo on their teacher’s butt whenever she bent over to pick something up. Maybe teachers should be in uniforms too. I’m not against tattoos, however, if you have one on your booby and the students can see it….
Many of the top rated private schools do not have uniforms –Trinity, Collegiate, St. Christopher’s and Catherines, Orchard House, Seven Hills, Sabot at Stony Point, Montessori schools, Luther Memorial, Steward, etc. Carletta, I would also ask these private schools why they chose not to have uniforms.
Did West choose a private school with uniforms?
It is my understanding that the boys at St.C’s, at least at the upper level, have to wear blazers to school.
Gray, would you base your decision (either in all or in part) to send your child to school on whether or not uniforms were required? What bearing would that issue have to do with whether or not you would choose to send your child to that school?
john is correct and also consider most if not all private schools do have dress and proper behavior codes/standards.
I agree with Gray about the teacher’s choice of dress- We see our fair share of teachers & parent chaperones dressed in an inappropriate manner! Many of our lunch topics begin with “can you belive what she wore!”. I really am not a prude- but I belive that how you dress (or what you buy for your child to wear!) does represent yourself or who you represent. When a teacher is in cutoffs, flip flops with their tattoos showing, that is a poor representation of the school- The message I get is that they aren’t taking their class or my class seriously.
If we expect adults in workplace to dress appropriately, why can’t we expect chidren to?
Nadine, Government mandating uniforms is unconstitutional, therefore, I oppose enforcing them in public schools. Now would I choose a school with uniforms, yes if I liked the educational programs there but so far my favorite private schools do not have them.
Bud, I agree with dress and proper behavior codes/standards and RPS has this already –it is written in the student conduct book. By the way, requiring blazers is not the same as a uniform.
Gray, are there really teachers dressing like hoochie mamas in your kids’ schools? Yech.
“Many of the top rated private schools do not have uniforms –Trinity, Collegiate, St. Christopher’s and Catherines, Orchard House, Seven Hills, Sabot at Stony Point, Montessori schools, Luther Memorial, Steward, etc. Carletta, I would also ask these private schools why they chose not to have uniforms.”
…because the parents are paying a gazillion dollars a year in tuition and are probably expecting a return on their investment, which undoubtedly has an impact on the kids’ behavior?
Comparing RPS to private schools is apples and oranges. Does Norfolk have public school uniforms? Charlotte? DC?
Gray, not trying to be obstinate, but where in the constution is the right of students not to wear uniforms?
Jennifer,
Yes there are some hoochie mamas in the schools, especially on the warmer days. And sometimes things are unintentionally exposed because of undersized clothes.
Nadine go to the ACLU site.
Jennifer and Nadine, like Murden said in post #20, you can organize within your regular RPS and decide on uniforms. In my daughter’s school I will vote no.
Now, I would rather discuss VA Dominion Power’s plan of a coal burning plant in Wise, VA and Hansen’s (NASA climate expert) report to congress last week –the thing about us all being “toast” in ten years if we don’t start doing something today about CO2…but I gotta go.
While not specifically stated Collegiate gives a list of what is not permitted for boys and girls. If you look it this list what is left is a certain type of dress that can be to some considered a “uniform”. My son wears jeans (not too big and always with a belt) and t-shirts with printed expressions most of the week well at Collegiate he would not be allowed to based on the “dress code”. What’s left? Khaki’s and polos? There are different ways to label things and to me that is a uniform they just didn’t state they had to be Khaki is color or the shirt be white. For me teachers are not exempt from this. The teachers should be appropriately dressed but again who’s definition of appropriate are we talking about. A teacher can state” it’s my right to have freedom of expression?”. But it’s also my right as a parent to not have my child exposed to your back side because you choose to but on pants that are too low or panties that are too revealing. See we get into a slippery slope here with whats appropriate and what’s not appropriate. There is a dress code for teachers as well but again not being enforced because it’s not specific. The list I read for Collegiate spelled it out clearly and I don’t think a parent who is willing to pay 12K plus has a problem following it.
I was an inner-city public school kid until I won a scholarship in the 8th-grade to attend an all-girls college prep school similar to St. Catherine’s.
I was grateful for the uniform. There would have been no way in the world that my family could have afforded to dress me in the mannner that the other girls were accustomed. For me, at that time in my life, uniforms were a Godsend.
Goldman and West each know that the parents in our city are crying out for improved schools and I believe that both of these gentlemen truly desire to bring about change.
However, the Virginia Code stipulates that school systems cannot “provide” uniforms for students and that school systems cannot mandate uniforms as a requirement of attendance.
PTAs, however, can and have opted to run pilots on wearing uniforms. Linwood Holton attempted it a few years ago and got off to a great start, but it eventually just faded away. J.E.B. Stuart Elementary still has a uniform policy, but last I heard the kids only wear the uniforms on certain days of the week.
The authority to have a “uniform” school policy rests with local PTAs. Goldman and West would be better advised to work closely with the PTAs to achieve a city-wide buy-in. I wish them luck. One of the saddest things about Richmond is that people have forgotten that they really are in charge and if enough people in any given school desire to approach their PTA for this policy, it can happen — or NOT.
If anyone could do something to eliminate the “jailhouse look” our young men are emulating — the over-sized white t-shits and droopy damned drawers, I would be happy. Mr. West and Mr. Goldman are to be congratulated for keeping this issue in the public.
Get Real, the “jailhouse look” is exactly my concern. It’s no some much that I don’t like the saggy britches as much as I disapprove of the persona the kids are trying to imitate. Believe me, they might think it’s freedom of expression, but it’s my job as a parent to discourage the adoption of a gangster persona.
The gangster lifestyle is idolized among many young people (just look at the Bebo pages for members of the Church Hill Boyz). Those kids (and they are kids) really think that making money and owning guns is what it is all about. And, they all want to look the part. Maybe kids playing adult games, but for many of these kids, the game became too real.
I really don’t want my kids to think that’s cool and I do my best to discourage it.
Like I said, a uniform would really level out the playing field. There would be less peer pressure to wear clothes that glorify that lifestyle.
I don’t think you can label dressing a certain way as living a gangster lifestyle. There are many ministries in the city that promote a come as you are policy and none of the people involved are promoting fast making making through drugs or owning guns. Those things are not exclusive to inner city life. The NRA promotes owning guns and I don’t think they would be accused of being “gangsters”. People have a right to self expression but to quote Collegiate’s handbook ” The dress code is designed to maintain appropriate decorum and an optimal learning environment for teachers and students”. While RPS does have a “dress code” it’s not enforced and does little good if it fails to address what not to wear.
Agreed Carletta. Except, my son included, a lot of these young kids ARE trying to look like they are “gangsters”. And, as he gets older and more independent, I can only hope the lessons I tried to instill in him will resonate louder than the pressure of fitting in.
Do you know what the problem is? The school system doesn’t do its job. How can they enforce a uniform policy when they can enforce a dress code, and they are failing at educating our children. Bottom line is if they did what they got paid for this wouldn’t be an issue.
James, I agree.
The problem is the enforcement of the dress code. Maybe if we didn’t have teachers being forced to “teach to the test,” they would be able to focus on the ways to inspire young people to dress for success. Teaching our young people how to dress and appear in public strikes me as an important career counseling issue.
… which is well outside the scope of the what a classroom teacher should be doing.
I’m mad that no one downtown is doing anything to make east end schools people’s first choice and uniforms are not going to change a damn thing from what I’ve seen in the poor RPS. I say give us high quality teachers and good leaders that are able to keep teachers from fleeing, give us advance language art books, stop teaching to the damn tests, give the many bright students something more, do something about the outrageously high suspension rates at the elementary level, renovate our schools and build a “badly” needed new one. Woodville elementary is busting at the seams with over 600 students and has a shortage of staff and at the same time they have Bellevue elementary on a chopping block. Proposing uniforms won’t trick me.
Is this Goldman’s way of winning votes? Goldman and West, please tell all of us what prompted you two to think of uniforms first? And West would uniforms entice you to enroll your children in the east end schools?
The last thing I want my kids’ teachers spending time on is their wardrobes (or their manners). That’s *my* territory.
john m:
just checked in this thread and got teo Trojan alerts from MacAfee. Sounds implausible but jst wanted to point it out, just in case.
I’ve been getting them all day on this computer too, from CHPN and H&H, using VirusScan.
“Is this Goldman’s way of winning votes? Goldman and West, please tell all of us what prompted you two to think of uniforms first?”
That’s what I’m saying. It strikes me as kind of a “hey! look over there!” move.
I’ve been feeling a bit like the last to be picked for the team, over here - asking the same question over and over again. I appreciate someone else asking it, too.
PS - AVG is flagging this page on my machine, also. Started this morning. Thought it might be a sign about this thread, and that I should go back to talking about the goats.
After reading certain of the comments on the blog speculating about why I was allegedly focusing on School Uniforms and not bigger issues, I thought this post was necessary. Prior to the press conference on school uniforms, I issued in May a 12 point “Success of for Life Education” plan which unfortunately the press didn’t cover. Candidates do not control what the press covers, or when it covers it.
This is a fact of campaigning that candidate have to learn to accept. Besides my “Success for Life Education” plan, there is also my “Live-in Richmond” plan for incentives to provide home ownership to new teaching recruits and our best proven teachers if they would make a career in our public schools.
That, too, didn’t interest the press.
Back in 2005, I took it upon myself - it wasn’t required of me - to develop the City of the Future Plan, which even my opponent Mr. Pantele has praised, saying it was the first detailed plan to actually modernize 15 schools [only one aspect of the plan] , so much so that Bill cites his support for City of the Future on his campaign website. Robert Grey praised my plan at tonight’s mayoral debate forum.
I could go on about education proposals of mine over these past years, some getting a lot of coverage, others getting none, all thus part of the public record PRIOR to yesterday’s Press Conference on School Uniforms.
The point being: Anyone who took the time to familiarize themselves with the public record - Style Magazine, in calling me the “Man Who Got Things Done”, discussed many of my school ideas back in 2006, and just recently the RTD did an editorial calling me the “Idea Man” mentioning my proposal to improve vocational and technical education - could not therefore possibly believe it was fair to suggest that I was using the School Uniform issue to either duck anything or as my only or first proposal relative to education.
I happen to believe School Uniforms can help address certain issues of importance in our educational system. Moreover, Chicago, Senator Obama’s hometown [we both did community work helping residents of a poor neighborhood, in my case public housing] has instituted a school uniform policy and the city’s elected leaders support it.
So despite what has been written here, the policy I have proposed is perfectly legal and constitutional.
Net, net: I think the Internet is great, and I applaud all those who take the time to do blogs, and to post comments, whether they agree or disagree with my proposals. As long as you stick to the issues, and not post what are known as “ad hominem” comments, I say fire away, as the book When Hell Froze Over points out, ever since 1985 I have been the subject of some of the harshest attacks in Virginia politics, from my own party, in part because I dared challenge the conventional wisdom.
To make change in politics, you have to be willing to be the subject of certain things.
The reason I led the effort to get the Elected Mayor law on the ballot in 2003 while my opponents were content to keep the old system that didn’t allow you, the citizen any say in picking your Mayor, is this: I pride myself on not just talking the talk, but being willing to walk the walk when it comes to working with people to effectuate real change.
So I have always been willing to take positions even when they challenge the status quo and may be unpopular.
All any candidate can ask in a campaign is for those judging him or her to try and be fair.
In that regard, the record is clear: It is most unfair to suggest, in any way, that my support for School Uniforms is anything but what it is, one proposal among many that I believe can address certain issues.
In a few days, I will be issuing another set of proposals aimed at increasing the level of parental involvement in our Middle Schools, something I stated at tonight’s debate.
Will the press cover it? I don’t know, but like any campaign, I will try to convince them to do it, if not the whole thing, then one part.
In politics, this is known as getting “free media.” Since I will be outspent rather significantly by my major opponents, clearly this helpful to any underdog.
Reporting is a difficult job, and we have in Richmond a lot of people who do it well.
But even they have to answer to editors who might have a different view on what is considered newsworthy and what isn’t.
Actually, I remember standing in front of the Bellevue School many months ago, being interviewed about another of my education proposals, but to be frank about it, I can’t remember which one, although it was probably my School Modernization plan.
School Uniforms was not my first education proposal, and it will not be my last education proposal.
But it is one I believe we need in Richmond and can help improve the learning environment in our schools and help a lot of students.
For those who want to read my press releases on the various issues, please go to GoldmanforMayor.com, or my blog for blogger.com entitled Goldman On The Issues.
thanks jennifer c. I suspect someone must have inadvertently planted it via a link.
Read on a Starbucks cup As I See It: “On the battlefield of ideas, you have to move toward the sound of the guns” -Newt Gingrich
Mr. Goldman said “I happen to believe School Uniforms can help address certain issues of importance in our educational system.”
And I ask - like what?
I always know a thread has jumped the shark and tunnel vision sets in when people write comments asking why politicians are wasting their time on little issues when there are bigger ones like a nearby coal plant. We’ve got big problems AND small problems–all of which need to be addressed.
I have no doubt that Goldman isn’t sitting around thinking about school uniforms all day. I’m sure he’s thinking about a lot of other issues, too.
I like it that Goldman wants to have Richmond women honored for their achievements.
Surely, those dead white guys lining Monument Avenue (a/k/a “Losers Row”)can make room for some women — of all persuasions.
First, Mr. Goldman, that is very cool that you joined us here on the CHPN. Thank you. Many politicians read them but are too scared to step up to the plate.
1) Ditto on post #89 question.
2) post #6 - “What schools have you spent time in that indicates uniforms are “badly needed?” Mary Munford? Chimborazo? Open High? Armstong?”
3) No question here, just an observaton: “He will be the Education Mayor.” This title still scares me. George Bush, Jr. called himself that and gave us the unfunded disaster that is NCLB.
4) post #29 - “If I’m not mistaken the Mayors responsibility will be the day to day operation of the City of Richmond set forth by the policies that City Council makes and the School Board is the policy maker for school and the superintendent’s role is to carry out those policies and handle the day to day operations of school as set forth by the school board.”
Given this information, how do you plan on implementing your educational proposals? or will they be suggestions to the SB?
5) Can you list some more of your educational ideas or give links to the articles? Don of SaveRichmond should step in on this one –he is great at links.
6) Outside of ADA compliance, What is the priority and in sore need of funding in RPS? And what will city government do to help?
7) You said, “So despite what has been written here, the policy I have proposed is perfectly legal and constitutional.”
Yes I agree, but it is my constitutional right not to dress my kids in government mandated uniforms and still keep them in school. If our government could get away with forcing people exactly what to wear, would that be different than the Taliban forcing Burkas on women? Now if people choose to wear uniforms, that is fine.
8) You also said, “Moreover, Chicago, Senator Obama’s hometown [we both did community work helping residents of a poor neighborhood, in my case public housing] has instituted a school uniform policy and the city’s elected leaders support it.”
Is the uniform policy city wide in Obama’s hometown? Is it enforced?
Your comment suggests that it helps the poor and I’m sure it does in many ways but keep in mind that the school will not supply them. Check out http://pburgpn.net/news/2007/09/05/pps-psas-2/ . They are asking for donations.
If one school chooses uniforms and another opts out, will I be able then to choose the school opting out?
9) “It is most unfair to suggest, in any way, that my support for School Uniforms is anything but what it is, one proposal among many that I believe can address certain issues.
Maybe it would have been better to just argue against uniforms but my suggestions might have been the reason you decided to blog or maybe not.
I believe it is unfair (and this is more on West than you) that I have to see politicians stand before my neighborhood school that they have never entered and tell me what is “badly” needed when the news and the blogs have spelled out for years the problems in the east end schools and uniforms was not first on the list. East enders have spoken with West on numerous occaisions about the issues. A press conference on an empty lot where you anounce “this is where we will build a new school” would have been more effective. The uniform proposal should have been given on the steps of Albert Hill middle where the very poor and upper middle class attend school together. We’re already equalized here in the east end schools with poverty.
Goldman, also in Style, West had an essay published stating he would not send his kids to RPS (I believe Bellevue is his district school) and he never mentioned uniforms. Here Is where I would like for West to list specific reasons why he will not use his district school. This list could show us the real priorities in RPS and also give us ideas on how to draw the middle classes into the public schools.
10) This is to all politicians/candidates, when it comes to the issues in RPS please listen to the families and teachers in the schools, please sit in on classes, please look at the differences in what is being offered at various RPS, look at the current policies that harm the poor more than the upper classes, etc. I personally would be happy to meet with any candidate and tell them what I have seen, experienced, and heard. Over the past year, I have made a point of speaking with families whose children attend the wealthy and the poor schools. It is a fact that RPS is separate and unequal and it is failing to give children equal opportunity. Public education should operate like the fire department –the fire department gives equally good service to both the rich and the poor.
Please, politicians/candidates feel free to answer any of the questions above.
11) Final note: I have not made a decision on who I will vote for so I’m trying to gather as much information as possible.
GetReal #91, I like the idea of honoring a woman and I think it should be Elizabeth Van Lew, however, Goldman like most of the other mayoral candidates did not answer the question regarding the “Davis” statue at Tredagar. Here is the article http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news/tuesday.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-07-01-0040.html .
Oy vey, Gray, take a breather. This isn’t Gray’s News & Opinion Network. Besides, your kid will be just fine.
Ever heard of brevity?
Ruth,
Oy gevalt to you … I appreciate Gray’s concerns and desire to make this world a better place. If you have an opinion — then post it. Nobody’s stopping you. But, don’t fault Gray because you have nothing substantive to say.
Gray’s passion and moral outrage that anyone would harm a child — or allow Richmond Public Schools to do so — reminds me so much of Robert F. Kennedy. Consider the following:
“Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. Each time a person stands up for an idea, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, (s)he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.” – Robert F. Kennedy
Keep’em coming, Gray …. I love your spirit!
I spent all my childhood in Catholic schools with uniforms and strict dresscode enforcement. Let me be clear, a uniform is not the cure for socio-economic problems by itself. But a dresscode/uniform does instill a sense of respect and seriousness about how you present yourself to the public. If you look like a slob and are completely unfocused, how can you/others possibly take you seriosuly? To be clear, I am not a proponent of authoritarion polices. I do think a minimum level of decency, however, would raise the bar for our kids and what they think of themeselves from a self esteem stand point. If kids benefit, I am all for it. That’s the name of the game. I say give it a shot. What do we have to lose? We already have one of the worst school systems known to mankind. Taking a chance on a change seems like exactly what we need.
Unless something’s changed, it varies by day. Most of the bigger public schools mix it up- coat & tie days, “business casual” days and maybe a jeans day on Friday. Some schools, of course, police it better than others…
“bigger private schools” is what the dolt meant to say.
Robert F. Kennedy? You’ve got to be kidding me.
Grey sounds, to me, like a yenta housewife with too much time on her hands. I mean, it’s a weekday and all she’s done is fill it with claptrap.
Ah, Robert F. Kennedy?
Ruth, I figure you probably don’t have kids. Or, if you do, you send them to private schools, where they wear uniforms and don’t have friends of varied cultural and economic backgrounds. Plus, you’re a big meanie.
I really need to go cull my kids’ crap while they’re not here to notice. See you guys later :)
No, I don’t have brats and I wouldn’t send them to RPSs anyway. I hear they are terrible, mainly through this website.
I’m just questioning why Grey is obsessed with school uniforms when there is a coal plant going to be built in Wise county. I mean, that’s what we should be talking about!
They’re going to manufacture coal in Wise County?
Now I will swat….
Stop acting like a gnat Ruth and state your pro uniform arguments. If you are voting for Goldman state why and if you disagree with something I said, say it and if you have information supporting your argument, give it…this is how we learn.
Yep …. Robert F. Kennedy. Passionate about kids, all kids. Passionate about Civil Rights and making this nation live up to the promise embedded in the Declaration of Independence that all men (including women and children)are created equal.
And, my dear, if you think Gray has too much time on her hands, what does that say about you considering that you are sitting around taking the time to read her postings, eh?
Until you have something positive to say, I suggest you refrain from the ad hominem attacks. Jennifer C. is right — you are acting like a big meanie.
I suggest you get over yourself.
This is the thread where people are talking about school uniforms. Discussing school uniforms on this thread does not make a person obsessed, as it is the right place to be talking about it, eh? And one would ask why a person would spend a bunch of time reading about something that doesn’t interest them. THAT, to me, sounds like too much free time, actually.
Lashing out at others might have garnered cool points in middle school, but you may have noticed that it’s not really too cool here. Not to me anyway - just speaking for myself. I have caught myself doing it a couple times, and it had made me laugh at my silliness, as well as wonder what was wrong with me in that moment. Both times I later realized that I was starving at the time, and both times apologized to the lashee.
As a general rule, being nasty is bad for a person’s viewpoint, if they have one to express.
Just my $.02.
Hey Jennifer, go here http://riverdistrictnews.com/2008/06/30/protestors-arrested-at-dominion-virginia-power-offices/ . I’m not an environmentalist, but from recent news and Hansen’s report to congress, it is imperative that we get rid of coal burning plants because they give off the most CO2 and he said that we have ten years to clean up our act.
Through the comments on the site, maybe. As the proprietor of the site, I’m a huge fan of Richmond Public Schools :)
Ruth:
Have you ever posted anything that was actually contributing to any thread on this site?
What’s with the mean, snide remarks? You call people horrible names, you say terrible things about your neighbors and you seem to hate just about everything.
What gives?
And by the way, you’re no day in the park to live near either, but thanks for finally painting your shit brown, peeling house a fairly decent color after years and years of neglect.
Ha. Me too, John. And if there were same-sex public schools for middle, my son would be there.
If we are still in this town the year after next, we are hoping for acceptance at Appomattox. Public.
Ruth:
Have you ever posted anything that was actually contributing to any thread on this site?
What’s with the mean, snide remarks? You call people horrible names, you say terrible things about your neighbors and you seem to hate just about everything.
What gives?
And by the way, you’re no day in the park to live near either, but thanks for finally painting your shit brown, peeling house a fairly decent color after years and years of neglect.
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/are-big-oil-and-big-coal-climate-criminals/
FYI - MLK has gender-separated classes for all of the core academic classes.
Hey john_m:
Are gender separated classes proving to be effective in terms of academic performance?
That’s great to know about MLK. Definitely. I think that reflects a lot about the progressiveness of that school. Really, I have heard a lot of great things about MLK.
It’s not the STUDY time that I’m really talking about, though. It’s the free time, at an awkward age, where I would rather my kid be working on learning who he is instead of getting distracted too much by us fairer counterparts. I know that we can be quite distracting! :)
But that’s just me, personally, and what I have found to work best for us. Didn’t mean to open a can of worms.
We started with the 6th grade students in the 2006-2007 school year, and have kept this in place as these students advanced. This past year was the 2nd year, and the 6th and 7th grade classes were set up like this. The coming year will be the first year that the classes in all 3 grades are set up like this.
From that short history, I only have anecdotal evidence of a performance boost. It seems to work, and there is definitely a decrease in the types of distraction that burgeoning hormones bring.
Oops! Sorry Hillkid. I hadn’t seen your question when I was typing 45. I was not trying to thwart discussion - just apologizing for thread-jacking.
GetReal, thank you for your very kind remarks. I know from what I’ve seen on these threads, that we hold similar beliefs.
Are you sure about gender separate classes at MLK? I know that Henderson Middle has them, but this is news that MLK has them as well.
You might double-check that. I know quite a few people at MLK and no one has ever mentioned this. Hmmmmm …..
I know the PTA president at MLK had to fight like hell to get a Spanish teacher assigned for the 8th-graders. She contacted her School Board member (Chandra Smith)and got nowhere. Fortunately, she contacted another school board member and asked for her help. Wanna guess which SB member delivered?
If I am not mistaken, GetReal, John is a teacher there.
John, I just went back up and re-read your post on MLK ….. Sounds like you know what you’re talking about. BRAVO!Do you teach there? If MLK is using single gender class assignments and Henderson is, too, then I think there might be more than enough information to inspire the SB to go bigger into the single gender middle school assignments. Wouldn’t that be wonderfully progressive?
Mea culpa …. I am sorry, John, if my initial response was one of needing to check it out. Thank you for all your hard work. Did you hear that Henderson’s principal, Dionne Ward, has been promoted to be the asst. Supt. for Secondary Education. Since she was successful at Henderson with the single gender classes and since MLK has been successful, that just might be enough to encourage the “Powers That Be” to consider expanding to other middle schools. Thank you, again, John for all your hard work.
Thanks for the info john_m. Sounds like a good direction at MLK. Middle school is a crucial academic period for many young people, setting the stage for future academic performance. The ragin’ ‘mones can really distract from that, yet with the same gender classes and mixed gender lunchtime, hall time, etc. etc, maybe the best of both worlds for that vulnerable time.
you know after rereading my recent posts regarding a fellow blogger i realize i come ff sounding a little mean spirited. so iam hanging up my pen and signing off on this exercise in futility.good luck to all and dont let any crybabies ruin your day. buddycorbett
Gray:
“mike, Here is a paragraph from the ACLU link:”
How many links would you like me to send you where they are trying to protect sex offenders, criminals, terrorists all while attacking religions?
Don’t get me wrong.. I hate the uniform idea. It would be a waste of money and manpower with no measureable effect..if any.
I am the PTA president at MLK and they gender separate for most classes. There are some classes where this is not possible i.e. exceptional education. Since I have posted on the uniform issue and can speak from a point of reference as a parent and a former student in MLK (then Mosby) let me say I’ve never been for uniforms. If we are looking at the challenges of middle school and all that it brings or just being in an urban school environment period you we should consider the small things. Will uniforms have a measurable effect on academics? Probably not. Will uniforms have a measurable difference in the interactions between students or effect student behavior? Maybe, maybe not but what we do know is the school house a training ground for the rest of a child’s life. What they learn in those doors whether it is academic or social will follow them for the rest of their life. What is being passed off as a dress code and allowed to stand it ridiculous. When I attended the 8th grade moving forward ceremony this year I was embarrassed for the many young ladies who were dressed well beyond their years. Many in shoes impossible to walk, dresses too short and tops too low cut. While we will all say it is the parent’s responsibility to monitor what their children wear I personally believe society has set a tone where this over sexed way of dressing is acceptable. The principal tried to censor several dresses and was met with resistance from higher ups and several parents who made the case the items were appropriate. So who decides? With almost 23,000 students in RPS we have at least 23, 000 parents or guardians with as many opinions on what is appropriate. We also have a school system failing our students. We know they’re laundry list of things that are wrong but how do you fix them? Appearance is everything and so are first impressions. If the role of the school is to prepare a student for higher education or future employment how many of those young ladies would be employable dressed in that manner. During the very important formative years in student’s life being taught appropriate dress will certainly not kill them. Because I see everyday where qualified young men and women are not hired based on the way they dress for job interview
Posted by nadine at July 1, 2008 2:02 pm :
“Gray, not trying to be obstinate, but where in the constution is the right of students not to wear uniforms?”
It’s in the 1st and 14th Amendments.
The Supreme Court, in a landmark decision, ruled that students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate” (Tinker v. Des Moines). The Court also declared that “state-sponsored schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism.”
In an eloquent passage, the Court wrote: “That [public schools] are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms . . . if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes.”
Disruptive expression and fashion was also addressed. The Court determined that schools have the ability to regulate excessive fashion behavior under current law. Schools can limit students’ speech or expression only when necessary to avoid a “substantial disruption of or material interference with” the educational process.
So a student wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit or displaying gang colors can be disciplined under existing law. Imposing more restrictions on student expression is oppressive, illegal, and unnecessary.
Due to the post-Columbine backlash, we have seen many policies that are turning schools into fortresses and students into prisoners. Schools have instituted strict speech codes, dress codes, random searches, surveillance cameras, mandatory uniforms, seizure of private papers, snitch lines, and a zero tolerance for just about everything. Students’ rights are quickly disappearing. As one columnist wrote: “High school kids . . . are getting pretty short on liberties, except the right to remain silent.”
Posted by Shannon at July 1, 2008 10:52 am :
“I ask again - why now?
What is the supposed problem that this proposal is designed to eliminate? Has anyone on the proposal side stated any reasoning behind this?”
Why now? Because it’s almost election time. School uniforms is one of those hot-button, feel-good issues that keeps coming back again, like flag burning and same-sex marriage. It’s simplistic, easy to understand, and doesn’t cost much. As Yogi Berra says, “It’s deja vu all over again.”
The reasoning? Parental convenience, clothes reduce crime, and students don’t feel inferior when they all look the same. We should also make them wear masks so the ugly kids can be equal.
The real reason is uniforms are a quick fix for a deeper problem. We should be discussing effective measures such as violence prevention courses, closer links between schools and local law enforcement agencies, smaller classes, better facilities, and tighter school security. But these things cost money, and nobody wants to pay for it.
Posted by Paul Goldman at July 2, 2008 12:23 am:
“So despite what has been written here, the policy I have proposed is perfectly legal and constitutional.”
See above.
I read your website and blog, as you suggested, and found only a fleeting reference to “Dressing for Success” as an argument for school uniforms.
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