brawl at Martin Luther King Middle School
There was a ruckus among students yesterday at Martin Luther King Middle School at the end of the school day:
Some parents are upset with Richmond Police after a brawl at Martin Luther King Middle School spills over into Mosby Court. The fight happened Wednesday after school let out. Police came and disbursed the crowd and some parents claim they used excessive force. One juvenile faces disorderly conduct charges.
Tiny, I remember your concerns regarding middle schools – http://chpn.net/news/2008/04/08/west-calls-for-new-school-board/. Looks like your fears were legitimate. Fill out an out of district application for Hill and hope for the best.
Regarding the closing of Bellevue: we need to ask school board candidates where they stand on this issue.
A fight one afternoon should not damn an entire school. At MLK as at almost any school, students looking to get in trouble will find it and students looking to achieve and succeed will find that opportunity as well.
From my 4th-hand access to whatever happened, it sounds like it was neighborhood stuff between some kids. None of the names that I’ve heard as being involved are necessarily surprising.
You’re right john, it is only one fight and the school shouldn’t be damned. But I would still recommend Tiny to turn in an out of zone application for Hill and get on the waiting list.
I attended Albert Hill and there were fights all the time. That was years ago, but it was a reputable school at the time. Albert Hill and Binford were the top middle schools. Not sure if they are still.
I attended Byrd Middle, and there were fights all the time. After school, during school. John M’s right.
The bad part about brawls in schools these days is that they have become extremely violent – adult level rather than just a one-on-one fist fights of years ago. I blame the parents for most of it as this generation of children (and I am not stereotyping but making observations) are being raised by adults who had little supervision themselves and not prepared to be parents. Many want to be “friends” to their children rather than parents and psychological behavioral therapist agree that you can’t be a friend and not a parent in fear of rejection or retaliation. Time-outs never work and not severe enough and not being around for them doesn’t help. Handing kids everything they want hand over fist (spoiling them) doesn’t teach responsibility and isn’t a substitute for having quality time together on a daily basis. No wonder many have become unruly these days. Oh well… glad I don’t have any children growing up in this day and age.
Eric
For the record, there are still some of us who care about our kids’ behavior, but I agree that we are a waning breed.
I, for one, sure don’t think it breaks a child’s spirit to make sure that they are a wee bit fearful of you/consequences.
I really doubt the most of the kids in Mosby are “spoiled” and are given “everything they want hand over fist”.
You really need a reality check.
You can only “read” about the problems with today’s youth. I am raising today today’s youth and you are way out of touch.
I appreciate the effort you have given trying to save historic houses. But, I don’t give your the armchair pyschology on the plight of our children much credit.
tiny… One of our closest friends (and neighbor) is a licensed therapist with several degrees and goes to various households handling these kinds of children (and teenage) cases so I am not just talking out of my hat.
No… Mosby children may not be spoiled but they are not supervised which was part of what I touched on. Don’t just pick and choose what you want to read in a post.
Shannon… agreed. What is wrong with the picture when the child tells the parent what to do “or else”?
Eric
I think there are reasons why these kids act out, but not the ones you have mentioned. The thing is, I know these kids, I talk to them everyday. Their situations are far more complex that what you have described.
Non-parents hate to hear this – but honestly, until you have walked in my shoes you can’t really judge.
Go to http://www.greatschools.net to see school ratings and stats. Binford actually has a lower score than MLK. Albert Hill and Henderson are rated the highest but only by a point. But scoring is not everything. Drop in on the schools and take a tour.
The middle school years can be awkward and for some students overwhelming. Finding a good fit for your child during these years could be very important.
tiny.. can you name some of the reasons? Our friend isn’t dealing with Mosby Court children but ones in rural areas so not necessairly “influenced” by others in peer pressure situations. These children also don’t have a lot but not all of her cases are like that as some do have various mental disorders.
Eric
May I chime? Because in my experience, neglect looks like a big factor.
I sat in a group meeting with a few parents of kids that had been bullied pretty hard by a couple other kids, (the bullies happened to be on my soccer team, and my kid happened to be one of the bullied – one of the accused having told my son that he was going to kill him for trying to save his much smaller friend who was getting pummeled at recess.)
Joining that group were members of the administration, and both of those kids’ guardians – both grandparents, and one of the grandparents answered her cell phone continuously during the meeting. Not sure that this is a completely unique situation, however I’m wary of coming off as all arrogant, implying that this sums up the home life of all kids with behavior problems. I do know a bit about the issues with a few kids, and this scenario with the cell-phone-in-the-meeting seemed to reflect what I can see of thier challenges. Shoot, I’m tired as it is. I can’t imagine having to raise a kid if I was 60. 60 and super-rude.
Anyway – not too sure if some of these kids feel cared for and listened to at home, that’s all I mean. And throwing stuff at the kids, while giving them the responsibilities that they are too young for – like running the show – is just as neglectful, from what I have seen.
Reminds me of that silly sales slogan thing – “People don’t care what you know until they know you care.” Maybe some of those kids don’t care what their guardians think because they are not shown care and understanding at home.
Life is too busy and chaotic these days. I think that makes it hard sometimes, too.
End chime.
I think Eric hit it right on the nose in post #6. As to whether my opinion is legitimate enough for the class, I have two little boys, one of whom is slated to start kindergarten next year. I also have a mother who retired from a high-dollar county high school, and holds exactly the same opinion as Mr. H. As he expressly pointed out, he’s making a general statement.
Shannon… sounds a lot like my statement that the parents are not responsible enough to be one because they grew up in a similar enviroment… domino effect. The X generation grew up with too many options, parents were too busy to be parents, became couch potatoes, and have a I Could Care Less attitute about themselves or others. So this is now showing up in their own children because either they influence them or neglect them, one of the two (or both).
Eric
Thanks Jennifer… I was hoping I wasn’t the only sane person around here :-)
Jennifer C., are you considering sending your kids to the charter if it is approved? And if it is approved, when will it open. I’m interested in sending my younger daughter there because her current school is slated for closure. How and when do we apply? I’m hoping to make the school board meeting on Monday. Can I bring a picket sign?
Tiny:
I’ve been holding my tongue long enough.
Would you please stop you self-righteous, super-parent, “I know everything about kids and you don’t” rants? It’s really irritating and tiring. There are many parents on this site, but, as you would say, “with all do respect”, do you think that you can put a lid on it?
I’ve never read anyone brag on and on about how tuned in and correct they are about kids and parenting. It’s such a bore.
Tiny, with all DUE respect …I have to agree with Hillkid, tonight.
And, Shannon, your tone when you start in on how neglected and not listened to these kids are sounds so condescending and paternalistic.
How about we just try to figure out the best way to educate ALL children regardless of the age of their guardians or who their parents are?
Poverty is fact — it shouldn’t be used as an excuse.
To fix the problem with some problem children, we must first look at the parents.
Who mentioned poverty was a key factor here? I didn’t and don’t think anyone else? You can raise children to be courteous, respectful, and conscientious with good values “if” the parents know how to themselves – even in a one room dirt floor shack.
Eric
Gray – yes, I would like to send my boys to PH. We live more-or-less equidistant between there and WH, which is our zoned school. As an educator’s child, the required family commitment to the school is enough to make me drool. Add that to the potential to have a truly diverse student population, and we’re all on board. I think it’ll take a few years to really get the interest in the community, but eventually there will be kids hiking to school from all over.The goal is to open in fall of ’09, which is coincidentally when my older son starts school.
I dunno if you can wear a sandwich board into the school board meeting, but feel free to try ;)
THANK YOU hillkid!
And THANK YOU getrealrichimond!
As neighborhood teacher, I agree you are so correct, poverty is a fact not an excuse. But that doesn’t make up for the lack of personal attention some of these kids receive at home and even in the school hallways from their “gaurdian” be it parents, siblings, grandparents, or aunts and uncles. Many of the the “gaurdians” treat the children like a chore; on their phones in the hall; walking so far ahead of the children they can’t keep up; doing their homework for them b/c it’s easier than helpping them learn and complete the material; the list could go on and on.
These children are neglected and many times given what they want (maybe not in a materialistic way) just so the parents can have their life and not deal with that of their children.
I am not saying this is the way for ALL children and parents in the community because I have LOTS of GREAT parents but I also see the mentioned behaviors ALOT. It is very frustrating and makes me very sad.
Children as young as five are using fighting and language (disrespect, foul language, yelling, and rudeness) as means of dealing with problems, because they have not been taught how to deal with emotions at home. These are learned behaviors…and that is the problem!
Thankfully there are many behavioral agencies in the school system that work with the students and from my experience I have seen a great improvement in my students that work with the agencies.
We need to do as much as we can to help these children before they get into a brawl like yesterday.
you’ve got to fight for your right to punch someone in the face
19. – Condescending and paternalistic? Paternalistic, really???? Are you sure that’s what you meant to say? Do you know what that big word means? Because that’s actually pretty funny.
And unless I’m way off base with my comprehension, a professional teacher seems to have made some statements similar to mine in post 22.
I’m just one regular person, Get Real, sharing my experience. Seems to me like that’s what Tiny was doing, too. So, for my part, apologies if that offended.
But speaking of experience, Got Any? If so, how about throwing out some solutions for “figure(ing) out the best way to educate ALL children regardless of the age of their guardians or who their parents are?”
It’s just not that simple. Kind of a case by case thing, really – not just one way. This is not a factory stamping out sugar cookies.
But maybe I’m wrong. How’s about enlightening us with how to “figure that out…” Once you’ve got that simple problem worked through, ya can move right along to the problem of world hunger. And jealousy.
Also, I know some really polite poor people, and some really major jerks who, by all appearances, could not possibly be wanting for a thing. So while economics can play a part, I think it is important to mention here that poverty and lack of manners are not automatically synonymous. At all.
I don’t mean to make the synonymous and yes I am agreeing with you in many respects.
It is a case by case basis but I was looking more at the population I work with directly. There are more great parents than not and even with the cildren that have behavior issues I have received great parental support for some and for some not so much. It is to those not so much that my statements are reffering to.
It takes alot of work and it can be very frustrating to deal with and figure out how to help these children. You want a magic wand to wave over their heads and just fix them. But knowing that is a crazy delusion I have to take a step back and remember that these kids bring alot with them to school and its there where you have to take the case by case attitude to help them or find them someone that can help or assist the child if it is beyond you.
And as a side tid bit and I mean a little bit of help…a smile, a hug, and a kind word can go along way too.
“There are more great parents than not….” Thank you Teacher. My kids attend school in the east end and I find that the parents are working hard to give their kids a good education and raise them well.
shocker — a fight a MLK – you’ve got to be kidding.
shocker — a fight at MLK – you’ve got to be kidding.
After reading these comments, I felt compelled to include my two cents. I just want everyone to realize that they are spending time going back and forth on who is to blame about a systemic issue that can’t be fixed or corrected overnight. With that said, we should be focusing on what “WE” (all of us) can do to help the situation. Someone spoke of supervision, have you been to the school to volunteer and supervise? Someone said they have a friend with degrees… that’s great… ask them to come tutor or teach at the school. Herein lies the issue, we talk a good game about what we know (and don’t know as I have read some of your surface level responses), but we are not willing to do anything about it. If you want some things to change, you have to make the first step and stop blaming others. It’s about the kids… and that’s all it’s about. When we spend time fighting amongst ourselves, our kids are learning that it’s okay to fight because they see us doing it. There is little difference between physical and verbal aggression when it comes down to it.
BTW… our community meeting tomorrow morning would be a great place to start doing something. It’s at the East End Library at 25th and R Streets at 10 am.
Wright, I would like to go to the meeting but the RPS art reception is at the same time. When is next meeting? I’ve got some information and ideas regarding the possible closing of Bellevue.
The meetings take place on the 1st Saturday of each month. Their dates and locations will always be posted on this website.
I think I can make that meeting, as we need to go to the library anyway for a project my son is working on.
Wright, Welcome to “Church Hill People’s Brawl.” However, for the best online brawl, go to http://riverdistrictnews.com/2008/02/24/club-velvet-owner-arrested-in-late-night-raid/. It’s a raw and witty ride.
@Stephen A. Wright – I could not agree more. However, surely you would not have taken away our proximity-based, collective right to wax intellectual without subsequent action or consequence…
Shannon Re: Post 24..
How do you like these “big words”?
Paternalism refers usually to an attitude or a policy stemming from the hierarchic pattern of a family based on patriarchy, that is, there is a figurehead (the father, pater in Latin) that makes decisions on behalf of others (the “children”) for their own good, even if this is contrary to their wishes.
It is implied that the fatherly figure is wiser than and acts in the best interest of its protected figures. The term may be used derogatorily to characterize attitudes or political systems that are thought to deprive individuals of freedom and responsibility, only nominally serving their interests, while in fact pursuing another agenda.
con·de·scend·ing Audio Help /ËŒkÉ’ndəˈsÉ›ndɪŋ/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-duh-sen-ding] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority: They resented the older neighbors’ condescending cordiality.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.†~ C S Lewis
Nice quoting. I still don’t really see how it applies, but whatev.
In the immortal words of Tina Turner, I don’t care who’s wrong or right. I don’t really wanna fight no more. In fact, my reply in post 24 probably will serve my bickering quota for the year… Reactionary scrapping is not really my style, and I was probably wrong to have taken that silly bait in the first place.
Enjoy this beautiful day!
GetReal, Excellent quote from C S Lewis…that could also apply to Wade Ellewood(and his take on the charter), and Jewell-Sherman’s Zero Tolerance discipline policy and her ridiculous every 9 week testing, and my favorite, Bush’s No Child Left Behind act.
Where did you find that quote?
Shannon,
I am not bickering with you. I am simply calling you on the condescending and paternalistic bombast you toss out.
Thank you for admitting that you do not care whether you are right or wrong.
What part of those very clear definitions do you not understand?
As to how we can help improve urban education, I recommend that you read any of the writings of Pedro Noguera or Lisa Delpit, for starters.
Gray: Re: CS Lewis quote. Don’t exactly remember …. it has been a favorite for years.
Lisa D. Delpit is the Benjamin E. Mays Professor of Urban Educational Leadership at Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia, and also the director of the Center for Urban Educational Excellence, whose work focuses on education and race. Dr. Delpit currently works at Florida International University in Miami, Florida, and also the director of the Center for Urban Education and Innovation.
She has written numerous books, among them Other People’s Children: Cultural Conflict in the Classroom which was published in 1995.
In 1990, Delpit was the recipient of a MacArthur fellowship.
She has also edited and contributed chapters in the book “The Skin That We Speak: Thoughts on Language and Culture in the Classroom,” published in 2002.
PEDRO NOGUERA
Pedro Noguera is one of this country’s most important voices on the state of education today. An expert on school reform, diversity, and the achievement gap, he is a powerful, articulate and far-reaching advocate for a strong and vibrant public education system.
Noguera is a professor at the Steinhardt School of Education at New York University. He is also a co-director of the Institute for The Study of Globalization and Education in Metropolitan Settings, and the Director of the Metropolitan Center for Urban Education.
As one of America’s leading urban sociologists, he focuses on the ways in which schools are influenced by social and economic conditions in the urban environment. He is a realistic, hopeful speaker who draws from his considerable body of work to connect with diverse audiences, from policy makers to administrators to teachers to parents to kids. He is an expert on education-related topics such as urban school reform; youth violence; conditions that promote student achievement; parents and schools; the potential impact of school choice and vouchers on urban public schools; issues of immigration and migration; education in other countries; and race and ethnic relations in American society, and specifically, at school.
A prolific writer, Nogeura is the author of several groundbreaking texts that have helped shape academic and public discourse on many facets of public education. His two latest books are Unfinished Business: Closing the Racial Achievement Gap in Our Schools and Beyond Resistance: Youth Activism and Community Change: New Democratic Possibilities for Practice and Policy for America’s Youth. Noguera is also the author of the seminal text City Schools and the American Dream: Reclaiming The Promise of Public Education. He has also published over 150 research articles, monographs and research reports, and his work has appeared in several major research journals (check out inmotionmagazine.com for a selection). He is also a regular guest on CNN, commenting on the state of education in America.
Great CS Lewis quote – agreed!
What’s with the hasty retreat of Jewell Shermann, Braxton and the school’s financial chief? I know this is not breaking news, but no discussion on this blog that I can see.
What are they running from, and better yet, are they hoping to avoid conflict/scrutiny from the public? Yes, the audit has revealed a quagmire!
The mass retreat is more than coincidence, it seems to me.
Ruby Payne’s Framework for Understanding Poverty is thought provoking and more concrete than what I’ve read by Delpit.
Both Delpit’s and Payne’s books look like good reads (checked it out on Amazon). I’ll go to the library this week. Thanks guys.
that was wtf momment why didnt the police break it up earlier before someone got hurt